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American Airlines and The Points Guy are suing each other

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181–190 of 332 posts

Re: American Airlines and The Points Guy are suing each other

#181

I wrote a scraper for Air Canada's aeroplan program a few years ago. I wanted to track my points in my own custom native app. I probably had $10,000 worth of points in my account. One day I logged in to find out my account had been deactivated on suspicions of fraud. After several lengthy phone calls with their team (including sending them the node.js script I was using), I was able to get my account restored. For th…

I’ve been on the other side of this, defending against bots. Basically: Well-behaved and well-intentioned scraping bots are rare. You’d get a lot of users setting update rates to 60 seconds that did a new login every time and creating as much traffic as 1000 users. Then they’d release the script for integration with something people and suddenly you have 1000 people each creating 1000 times as many login requests as…

Thanks much for the info.

Why can't you just ignore API requests once it exceeds a threshold rate?

Re: American Airlines and The Points Guy are suing each other

#182
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you operate in a commodity business you want to impede the market's price discovery mechanism (in this case by making it harder for prices to be aggregated). The same issue and battle is playing out for US healthcare as well due to the recent rule forcing hospitals to make prices public.

While some parts of healthcare - like drugs - can be seen as commodity, a lot of it is not. Service differs significantly from doctor to doctor. Not disclosing the prices makes it easier for the providers to have higher prices but it doesn't make the service in question a commodity.

While surgery may not be a commodity, the same mechanisms of price discovery lowering prices across the board apply. Even if a surgeon is more skilled, are they worth 3x the cost?

Re: American Airlines and The Points Guy are suing each other

#183
post #112

> The interest was monetization of customer eyeballs, an American Airlines source shared that they wanted customers checking accounts at AA.com where they could be marketed to. It seems like so many problems, annoyances and inconvenience in modern society are artificially created/maintained just to enable this disgusting industry. Imagine how more efficient things could be if this cancer was eradicated once and for a…

I'm always kind of reminded of Louis C.K's old bit about how humans learned to literally fly , and it turns out the whole experience sucks.

Isn't the whole point of that bit that we've become spoiled and indifferent, to the point where we no longer appreciate how amazing and futuristic our world has become?

Re: American Airlines and The Points Guy are suing each other

#184

Years ago I (and a handful of other folks) had a meeting with some people from American who were thinking about opening up their data via an API. One of the other attendees said something to the effect of, "software developers are very, very good at removing inefficiencies when given data like this." It was delicately phrased but the subtext was clearly a warning: if your business depends on asymmetry, an API can sin…

For some perspective: This isn’t just about friendly apps like TPG helping consumers out. If you have an API (or even just turn a blind eye to scraping) and have a popular service, scores of ill-intentioned business people will descend on your business to suck any value they can out of it. This ranges from all of those StackOverflow scraping websites in your Google search results to companies that want to scrape Face…

And if I open the website in my browser and then copy from browser to my computer, then all is good?

Re: American Airlines and The Points Guy are suing each other

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What is their case then exactly? Speculating, but TOS generally say that you're not allowed to share your password with anyone. Assuming that's true for the AA site, AA might argue that TPG is encouraging users to break their TOS ("tortious interference"). Though if app doesn't actually share the password with TPG and just uses it locally there may well be a question of whether entering your password into a third-p…

I doubt that part of a TOS is enforceable as it restricts speech. edit: No it doesn't, brain fart.

What law says someone can't restrict free speech?

Re: American Airlines and The Points Guy are suing each other

#186
I can't see how American Airlines will prevail in preventing screen scraping. At best, they can prevent their point data from being transmitted and stored to TPG's servers.

Screen Scraping is essentially interacting with the DOM extract information. American Airlines can't conceivably attempt to limit programmatic interaction with the DOM because that is a core component of how the web works including accessibility tools such as screen readers, and browser plugins/extensions.

Re: American Airlines and The Points Guy are suing each other

#187
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you operate in a commodity business you want to impede the market's price discovery mechanism (in this case by making it harder for prices to be aggregated). The same issue and battle is playing out for US healthcare as well due to the recent rule forcing hospitals to make prices public.

While some parts of healthcare - like drugs - can be seen as commodity, a lot of it is not. Service differs significantly from doctor to doctor. Not disclosing the prices makes it easier for the providers to have higher prices but it doesn't make the service in question a commodity.

Definitely, but if I'm comparing primary care providers in the same area between Kaiser and Hoag and Sutter or other large chains there isn't going to be much difference in service between the pool of available doctors at each one. Or even routine specialists for non-critical stuff like dermatology, you don't get any better care by going with the best. Where it matters is cutting edge, critical care like cardiology, oncology, and surgery where methods aren't standardized and individual skill (as opposed to drug innovation) plays a large role in outcomes.

Re: American Airlines and The Points Guy are suing each other

#188
As an attorney who focuses in this area, I can say that the most interesting question is first where this case will be decided. Texas, and the Northern District of Texas in particular, has historically been the worst jurisdiction in the country for web scrapers to litigate. Southwest has a long history of litigating successfully there, including two cases from just last year. If TPG is going to win, first they'll need to win the jurisdictional question of whether the case will be decided in Delaware or Texas.

Re: American Airlines and The Points Guy are suing each other

#189

I wrote a scraper for Air Canada's aeroplan program a few years ago. I wanted to track my points in my own custom native app. I probably had $10,000 worth of points in my account. One day I logged in to find out my account had been deactivated on suspicions of fraud. After several lengthy phone calls with their team (including sending them the node.js script I was using), I was able to get my account restored. For th…

I’ve been on the other side of this, defending against bots. Basically: Well-behaved and well-intentioned scraping bots are rare. You’d get a lot of users setting update rates to 60 seconds that did a new login every time and creating as much traffic as 1000 users. Then they’d release the script for integration with something people and suddenly you have 1000 people each creating 1000 times as many login requests as…

> Then of course there are people trying to make a business out of extracting your company’s data,

If I can do this by hand there's no legal reason I can't do it by machine. You can try to defend against it, I guess, but the second you start impacting your obligations to someone else (like disabling their account after they paid you) you are in the wrong.

Re: American Airlines and The Points Guy are suing each other

#190

The web is broken. The original promise of client/server services was that the server would provide data on a universal open data format, and the USER AGENT (initially a web browser, but other kinds were expected) would process it in a format to the liking of the user, and satisfying their needs . Compare this to the current situation where the industry standard is that the servers do indeed provide data through some…

The customer is an advertizer. The humans browsing the web are the product being sold.

Yes, that's what caused it: turning it into a market instead of a library.

When it was built by geeks, it was difficult to use but it was meant to serve people. Sellers turned "serving people" into that other meaning.

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