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Why isn't there a universal data format for résumés?

toot.cat

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Re: Why isn't there a universal data format for résumés?

#181

Post by [deleted] »

version_five wrote: post #83
netcan wrote: post #33

Hiring companies might prefer to just have this as a "hoop." There are, inevitably, some people who apply to a lot of jobs. Jobs they aren't qualified for. Low intent applications, where the applicant isn't really that interested. Etc. Even if these are a minority, they apply to a lot of jobs. In any case, standardizing job applications (OP seems to be talking about application forms that are mostly resume-ish fields…

They should ask for a cover letter. I agree that a hoop is needed - I recently posted a job on LinkedIn which has some kind of "click to apply" functionality, and it was clear that most of the applicants were just lazy clickers that probably hadn't even read the posting. On the other hand, if you make people jump through pointless procedural hoops, you're screening for people who are ok doing that. Ask for a cover le…

[deleted]

Re: Why isn't there a universal data format for résumés?

#182

Post by jrockway »

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #167
pyrale wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If resumes could be standardized and easily searchable for information it would help find candidates much more accurately and quickly without having to read. I see how that can be useful from the recruiting side of the table, but fail to see how the candidate benefits.

Think back to the first time you wrote a resume. For me and all of my college buddies at least, it was super stressful, because we had no idea what it was supposed to look like and nothing but vague rumors to go on. If there were a straightforward canonical answer for how my resume should be formatted it would have saved me quite a bit of work and quite a bit of stress that I was doing it wrong.

A standard requires people to agree. When I was in college, I was told that a resume was a list of buzzwords and past jobs. 1 page max. That got me quite a few jobs. When I interviewed at Google, people were like "this is it?" when looking at my resume (not that it mattered). I started doing interviews and saw the resumes that ended up at Google and they were all multi-page affairs with details about all the projects you worked on at a job. I started doing that, only to be told "wow, that's a really long resume". (Hint: if your role requires 10 years of experience, applicants are probably going to have a long resume!)

The key point here, I guess, is that a lot of people have told me my resume is in the wrong format, but I still got the job. What's the right format for one employer is the wrong format for another employer. So there is no way to win. I now have no clue how to write a resume, but it also doesn't seem to matter.

(Still bitter about how few people ever look at my Github, though. People put that as a custom field in their automated system, and then the interviewers have nothing to say about my projects!)

Re: Why isn't there a universal data format for résumés?

#183

Post by kortilla »

vanusa wrote: post #174
moralestapia wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Documents like these shouldn't be automatically processed, they should be reviewed by humans. That's very nice to think about but in the real world if people don't match some exact keywords they get thrown away. HR is looking for "node.js" but you wrote it like "nodejs"? Though luck pal, bye. HR wants a "computer scientist" but you have a degree in "computer science"? Same, automatically discarded. If anything, a st…

That's very nice to think about but in the real world if people don't match some exact keywords they get thrown away. This isn't the "real world" you're referring to here -- it's the fin-de-big-tech bubble world where everyone and their dog is not only sold, smack-down drunk on the idea that Algorithms and Data are the Solution to Your Problems. They aren't of course -- it's just a giant hornswoggle. This "world" nee…

> That's what resumes used to be, after all -- a kind of a take-home test where you really do have enough time (and perfect knowledge) to get everything 100 percent right.

The only thing this filters for is people who have been looking for a job for a long time and/or are people focused on presentation instead of content, good luck with that.

We’ve hired incredible engineers across that have had typos and major resume mistakes many times and they had no communications problems on the job.

A resume is a background/interests check for the hiring manager. Giving them a spell check is about as useful as measuring the ratio of times the letter ‘a’ appears relative to ‘e’.

> critical business communications at least -- this level of correctness does matter, and it matters a lot.

This sounds like someone who is unable to contextualize when that would be relevant. Unless you’re writing user documentation there are zero times in an engineer’s day-to-day communications where writing nodejs instead of “Node.js” would have any impact at all.

Re: Why isn't there a universal data format for résumés?

#185

Post by laumars »

indymike wrote: post #173
laumars wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately the lack of a standardised format hasn’t stopped technology from being developed which automatically reviews CVs before they hit a human. The tech is already out there. The problem we have currently is that some CVs fail that review because they’re in a format that the tools cannot parse. If you’re CV is strong but you’re seeing fewer responses despite having a prettier CV compared to your peers, then t…

> The problem we have currently is that some CVs fail that review because they’re in a format that the tools cannot parse. My company (we have software for responding to applicants in real time... think apply... instant conversation with a human recruiter) did a study of about 1,200 resumes and found that 14% of resumes had inaccuracies that would cause them to be screened out... and about 9% of resumes were in a unp…

Given a lot of these tools cannot even parse CVs with inlined tables, the tools I’m imagining aren’t sophisticated in the slightest. But they are depressingly common.

Re: Why isn't there a universal data format for résumés?

#186

Post by vanusa »

digitalsushi wrote: post #179
vanusa wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's very nice to think about but in the real world if people don't match some exact keywords they get thrown away. This isn't the "real world" you're referring to here -- it's the fin-de-big-tech bubble world where everyone and their dog is not only sold, smack-down drunk on the idea that Algorithms and Data are the Solution to Your Problems. They aren't of course -- it's just a giant hornswoggle. This "world" nee…

Google has 411m hits for Node.js and 66m for nodejs. I'd guess somewhere in the 66 million people calling it nodejs, we could find a real diamond in the rough if we heard them out at the next interview!

That's exactly what I mean -- people believe in Big Data so much these days that when something appears in a sufficient portion of search results, it must have actual validity.

Re: Why isn't there a universal data format for résumés?

#187

Post by snek_case »

brunellus wrote: post #68
jeroenhd wrote: post #42

In my opinion, there shouldn't be. Documents like these shouldn't be automatically processed, they should be reviewed by humans. Reducing someone's life history to a list of educational institutions and employers feels robotic even for a software developer's mindset. I understand that there are real life problems because companies do use automated processing on applications, but that kind of behaviour shouldn't be en…

Indeed if there were a standard format, there would be competitive advantages to using other channels to showcase your experience

That's already the case. You're much more likely to get hired if you know someone on the inside, if you've been recommended. If you apply through the official channels, you might not even get a response.

But I think an official format for CVs might not work so well because CVs in different fields aren't formatted in the same way. A programmer isn't going to put forward the same kinds of things as a musician or a professor in psychology.

Re: Why isn't there a universal data format for résumés?

#188

Post by tqi »

jeroenhd wrote: post #42

In my opinion, there shouldn't be. Documents like these shouldn't be automatically processed, they should be reviewed by humans. Reducing someone's life history to a list of educational institutions and employers feels robotic even for a software developer's mindset. I understand that there are real life problems because companies do use automated processing on applications, but that kind of behaviour shouldn't be en…

> Documents like these shouldn't be automatically processed, they should be reviewed by humans.

Human review is fraught with bias. A lot of attention and column inches are devoted to algorithmic bias these days, but let's not confuse that for evidence that human review is perfect or even better. It's just harder to audit.

Re: Why isn't there a universal data format for résumés?

#189

Post by vanusa »

netcan wrote: post #33

Hiring companies might prefer to just have this as a "hoop." There are, inevitably, some people who apply to a lot of jobs. Jobs they aren't qualified for. Low intent applications, where the applicant isn't really that interested. Etc. Even if these are a minority, they apply to a lot of jobs. In any case, standardizing job applications (OP seems to be talking about application forms that are mostly resume-ish fields…

Sometimes a modicum of friction is helpful.

The thing is it's far more than a "modicum" in practice. There was a recent Harvard Business School study out there revealing that these systems are poorly calibrated (and/or these companies don't know how to use them), and as a result millions of candidates are getting rejected for reasons that are either specious (6-month resume "gaps" that may be due to normal life circumstances) or utterly meaningless reasons (like failing to match certain word combinations).

But I agree though that many HR departments would still love to use any tool that narrows the pool (however lossy the filter may be). Whether that is a good thing or bad thing or not is a matter of perspective.

In my view, it puts HR's own value and utility into question.

Re: Why isn't there a universal data format for résumés?

#190

Post by netizen-936824 »

vanusa wrote: post #174
moralestapia wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Documents like these shouldn't be automatically processed, they should be reviewed by humans. That's very nice to think about but in the real world if people don't match some exact keywords they get thrown away. HR is looking for "node.js" but you wrote it like "nodejs"? Though luck pal, bye. HR wants a "computer scientist" but you have a degree in "computer science"? Same, automatically discarded. If anything, a st…

That's very nice to think about but in the real world if people don't match some exact keywords they get thrown away. This isn't the "real world" you're referring to here -- it's the fin-de-big-tech bubble world where everyone and their dog is not only sold, smack-down drunk on the idea that Algorithms and Data are the Solution to Your Problems. They aren't of course -- it's just a giant hornswoggle. This "world" nee…

Its not just big tech that does this. HR is also incompetent in academia and has similar practices at many institutions

Edit: oh, and also US state governments. there's a reason they're known for being incompetent, people job hop within months and get keywords on their resumes and nothing ever gets done

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