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Teaching how to code is broken

neil.computer

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Re: Teaching how to code is broken

#181

Post by muzani »

lawl wrote: post #36
__mharrison__ wrote: post #19

(Disclosure: I do corporate training (Python and Data Science) for a living.) I generally don't teach coding to newbies, so a lot of the coding I teach is correcting poor mental models and teaching features (somewhat) unique (or different) in Python. My best Pandas courses have been when the client opts to use their data for the course (instead of my canned data). The students are already subject matter experts with…

I always thought the best way to learn programming is to find a program you want to create, and then figure out how to make that happen. This is still how i learn (most effectively) today. If i want to learn a new language or something, i write something that i always wanted to write in it anyways. That way it doesn't get boring. I think what you're describing might be similar in that canned-data is not interesting.

I used to teach from the "program you want to create" angle, because that's how I learned programming. (JS/MEAN bootcamp)

The problem was that about 95% of my students didn't have a program they wanted to create. Some just wanted a hobby. Some wanted a better job. Some wanted to do a startup and manage a team, but they didn't really know what kind of startup to do. One guy joined because he made discord bots and thought node.js was cool, but learning loops started to get boring for him.

Re: Teaching how to code is broken

#182

Post by 908B64B197 »

tibbar wrote: post #170

It’s a little confusing and sad to me that people have to try to pressure themselves to go from zero to professional engineer in a short period of time. That sounds stressful and, frankly, almost impossible. Like a lot of people here, I taught myself how to code as a child in a terribly inefficient manner. I spent probably around 100 hours making games on my TI-83 - you had write a formula to figure out how to color…

> It’s a little confusing and sad to me that people have to try to pressure themselves to go from zero to professional engineer in a short period of time. That sounds stressful and, frankly, almost impossible.

... That's what engineering school is for. At least, that's how aerospace engineers, EE and so on do it.

> I’m grateful that my childhood obsession turned out to be absurdly lucrative.

I find that, when there's passion there's generally money. People that are insanely passionate will make things happen naturally.

Re: Teaching how to code is broken

#183

Post by ZephyrBlu »

WalterBright wrote: post #144
jodrellblank wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

/watches straw man fall over without putting up a fight. Would you rather work with someone who added a major subsystem to one of your compilers for fun or someone who had never coded but could recite the ISO standard by heart? Who believes the former person “would not be able to answer questions about [the subject]”? If measurements tend to become targets over time then the goal of “develop expertise” measured by “p…

> Who believes the former person “would not be able to answer questions about [the subject]”? All the people who believe that "teaching the test" is not real knowledge. For example, would you hire a lawyer who flunked the bar? How about consult a physician who couldn't pass his medical boards? How about get on an airplane with a pilot who flunked flight school, but "really knows how to fly"? And yes, there are bad te…

> For example, would you hire a lawyer who flunked the bar?

It's not about hiring a lawyer who flunked the bar. It's more like, how many lawyers are bad lawyers despite passing the bar.

I don't know about law specifically, but in my experience a lot of people who pass tests don't have deep understanding. Vice versa may also be true depending on the test.

Re: Teaching how to code is broken

#184

Post by randallsquared »

ljm wrote: post #155
moonchrome wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you actually been through this before ? I ask because my experience wasn't the same so I'm interested in other perspectives. One experience that jumps to mind right away - a few years back I was in charge of mentoring a group of interns. The thinkering/enthusiastic guy was smart and reminded me of myself at that stage - but I was a terrible employee at that point and it took a lot of failing to get productive, a…

It sounds a bit like you got things the wrong way around. The guy who reminded you of yourself needed more mentoring, and the other guy was doing just fine.

...isn't that what they said?

Re: Teaching how to code is broken

#185

Post by bear8642 »

asleepawake wrote: post #42
__mharrison__ wrote: post #19

(Disclosure: I do corporate training (Python and Data Science) for a living.) I generally don't teach coding to newbies, so a lot of the coding I teach is correcting poor mental models and teaching features (somewhat) unique (or different) in Python. My best Pandas courses have been when the client opts to use their data for the course (instead of my canned data). The students are already subject matter experts with…

Having a good mental model of a language seems like one of the fastest ways to be more productive in that language. Do you have any recommended resources for developing a strong mental model of python? For reference, Dan Abramov’s course JustJavascript [1] provides an amazing mental model of JavaScript, and Josh Comeau’s css for js developers [2] course provides an amazing model for understanding css. I have 5+ years…

Feel this mental model approach is part of the appeal of Scheme and SICP as you start with simple replace model but near the end (still exploring chapters 4,5) you get shown how to build an interpreter which forces you to know how it all works because otherwise it doesn't.

Feel that's sentiment get more now - it's *not* magic but the fact that everything works given it's all illusions is magical

Re: Teaching how to code is broken

#186

Post by WalterBright »

ZephyrBlu wrote: post #183
WalterBright wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Who believes the former person “would not be able to answer questions about [the subject]”? All the people who believe that "teaching the test" is not real knowledge. For example, would you hire a lawyer who flunked the bar? How about consult a physician who couldn't pass his medical boards? How about get on an airplane with a pilot who flunked flight school, but "really knows how to fly"? And yes, there are bad te…

> For example, would you hire a lawyer who flunked the bar? It's not about hiring a lawyer who flunked the bar. It's more like, how many lawyers are bad lawyers despite passing the bar. I don't know about law specifically, but in my experience a lot of people who pass tests don't have deep understanding. Vice versa may also be true depending on the test.

It's about the virtual certainty that those who didn't pass the bar are bad lawyers.

Re: Teaching how to code is broken

#188

Post by mewse »

pixel_tracing wrote: post #187

I seriously hate the card game example as I rarely play card games, maybe something more modern as an example?

I suspect that "teach coding by making Battlefield V: Definitive Edition" would likely require marginally more than the nine chapters proposed in the article for a basic card game.

Re: Teaching how to code is broken

#189

Post by bear8642 »

bdowling wrote: post #169

The problem started with using the word code as a verb. To code used to mean (1) translating a message into a coded form (e.g., cipher or Morse code), and (2) classifying something by attaching pre-defined codes to describe it (e.g., data entry). Programming a computer is not like either of those tasks, except to someone who doesn't understand programming.

> To code used to mean (1) translating a message into a coded form

This is probably where the verb form originates - translating the assembly or higher level ideas into the binary required for the computational engines of the past

Re: Teaching how to code is broken

#190

Post by nexuist »

WalterBright wrote: post #178
nexuist wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lawyers who lose cases, physicians who couldn't save their patients, and pilots who have been in plane crashes still get to work in their occupation after the fact. Experience rules over all. In your examples all those people never got to practice their craft. Lawyers can't practice law without a bar, physicians can't perform surgery without a medical license, etc. But software development isn't like that. What if th…

I don't buy for a minute you'd choose a lawyer who didn't pass the bar, etc.

I would certainly choose a lawyer who didn’t pass the bar provided they have won 10,000 cases in the past. Although I would settle for 1000-2000, etc.
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