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Burn My Windows

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Re: Burn My Windows

#181

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet »

Phrodo_00 wrote: post #124
marcodiego wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> An OS is much more than cool looking visualizations [...] At the time it was easy to hear people complaining about how ugly linux was. Compiz helped a lot in that front. We were used to people saying "you can't do that on linux" and then things quickly changed to us saying "you can't do that on your OS". Let's not fake it: linux is still far from being a diamond of UI design or consistency, but well, competition ha…

> linux is still far from being a diamond of UI design or consistency While I'll agree those are important for usability, I'm not sure they're necessary for adoption. Windows 10 uses a mix of UIs ranging from win32 windows 95 legacy to MAUI and most popular programs implement their own UI frameworks and it's doing ok.

At this point Windows is largely running on inertia and the fact that, despite all its flaws, its competitors still somehow manage to have worse issues for most people. But at one time, it was actually a pretty damned consistent and user-focused OS.

Re: Burn My Windows

#182

Post by watwut »

laumars wrote: post #139
nebula8804 wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I switched to Linux full time before Compiz took off and did so for exactly the reasons you cited the other platforms were superior: Linux was more stable, easier to reason with (as it was doing less magic behind the scenes), components worked better with each other since POSIX is designed for interoperability. Good for you that you had this experience but this is the standard talking point I have been hearing for 1…

> Good for you that you had this experience but this is the standard talking point I have been hearing for 15 years. Which is entirely anecdotal. I’ve done a considerable amount of research on this topic over the last 20 years and for the at least 10 years of it the actual main reason Windows users don’t like Linux is simply because it’s not like Windows. It doesn’t matter how much better Linux might be or how crappy…

Nah. I am not the only one who used both and ended up using only windows.

Because, it was less work to use windows. I like programming, I even like configuring, but I want to do them when I want and not because I need to do something third and computer is failing.

Re: Burn My Windows

#183

Post by GekkePrutser »

kleer001 wrote: post #67
nvr219 wrote: post #62

I use Mate with all the animations turned off and this kind of stuff makes me realize I am an elderly, soulless fuck

Same, but KDE fwiw. Yuck. I don't need it, I don't want it, get it away from me. But I'll be the last to yuck someone's yum. Have at it y'all. It's just not for me.

Yeah KDE's configurability is exactly what I want. 5.23 was again a great release.

This is really the power of Linux... You can make it what you want it to be.

Re: Burn My Windows

#184

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet »

laumars wrote: post #139
nebula8804 wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I switched to Linux full time before Compiz took off and did so for exactly the reasons you cited the other platforms were superior: Linux was more stable, easier to reason with (as it was doing less magic behind the scenes), components worked better with each other since POSIX is designed for interoperability. Good for you that you had this experience but this is the standard talking point I have been hearing for 1…

> Good for you that you had this experience but this is the standard talking point I have been hearing for 15 years. Which is entirely anecdotal. I’ve done a considerable amount of research on this topic over the last 20 years and for the at least 10 years of it the actual main reason Windows users don’t like Linux is simply because it’s not like Windows. It doesn’t matter how much better Linux might be or how crappy…

> I’ve done a considerable amount of research on this topic over the last 20 years and for the at least 10 years of it the actual main reason Windows users don’t like Linux is simply because it’s not like Windows. It doesn’t matter how much better Linux might be or how crappy Windows might get, if people are comfortable in one thing then they generally don’t like switching to another thing that behaves differently. And Linux behaves very differently.

There is a difference between just liking the way things behave because you're comfortable with it and preferring the way it behaves because it is better.

To this day there is a good chance that if I want to run the latest version of any piece of Linux software I will have to compile it from source like it's the 1970s in order to do so. That is a problem that Windows and MacOS have never had, and the Linux Desktop community has been very slow and reluctant to do anything about.

Hell, even today as Flatpak beings to emerge as the dominant cross-distro application packaging format, it is still lacking basic features of 1980s Desktop software management and gets a lot of flak from the community for existing at all.

Re: Burn My Windows

#185

Post by jdoliner »

marcodiego wrote: post #26

Compiz was probably the single most impactful event for desktop linux of the mid 2000's. Not that it itself made much of a difference, but the ripples affect many areas we take for granted today. A few reasons: - it put linux ahead of windows and mac in terms of appearance; - it brought many new users and most were a good mix technical and enthusiasts; - it showed the advantages of modular software; - many plugins we…

I got into Linux largely because of how cool compiz was. Wobbly windows legit created my entire career.

Re: Burn My Windows

#186

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet »

laumars wrote: post #153
nebula8804 wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here we go...down the same rabbit hole that these Linux vs whatever else conversations always go down. Just to reiterate: Every OS has problems but in MY experience Linux has broken on me in fundamental ways. MY experience is that Linux cannot be trusted for day to day usage even though I have been giving it chances for 15 years now. I'm glad that you have the fortune of having a better experience but I am not going…

> Here we go...down the same rabbit hole that these Linux vs whatever else conversations always go down. At risk of sounding like a school child: you literally started it. My point was initially just to say that other people get on fine with Linux. Then you took us down the rabbit hole conflating preference with technical fact. > Just to reiterate: Every OS has problems but… Exactly my point. You try to sound imparti…

> At risk of sounding like a school child: you literally started it.

No. When someone relates their negative experience with an OS you happen to use, that is not a personal attack or invitation to expound upon your own contradictory experience. This happens every single time anyone ever says anything even remotely negative about the Linux Desktop. Can you honestly say the same happens with anywhere near the same frequency when discussing Windows or MacOS problems?

Re: Burn My Windows

#187

Post by rd07 »

schmookeeg wrote: post #75

Wow did this ever take me back. Arguably my first "public code release" was a plugin ("mod" back then I think) for the WWIV BBS system -- a screensaver called "Bubbles" that would draw random circles on the idle screen instead of the dead blinky cursor at top left. BBS owners would basically need to code it as a diff in their own system and recompile the thing. I was maybe 9 or 10 years old. It was probably 50ish lin…

I am interested on how did you learn programming and even create a functional program when you were that young. I was 14 years old when I write my first "hello world" program, and after that, for the next 5 years I basically just fiddling with Visual Basic 6 UI builder and programming. Most of my script come from books or the internet, and I don't understand the complicated stuff at that time, especially where the program interacted with Windows API. Maybe the lack of teacher and access to materials also has a role for my lack of understanding back then. So, I am interested on how did you learn programming on such a young age?

Re: Burn My Windows

#188

Post by oraphalous »

marcodiego wrote: post #26

Compiz was probably the single most impactful event for desktop linux of the mid 2000's. Not that it itself made much of a difference, but the ripples affect many areas we take for granted today. A few reasons: - it put linux ahead of windows and mac in terms of appearance; - it brought many new users and most were a good mix technical and enthusiasts; - it showed the advantages of modular software; - many plugins we…

Also - it was just fun... I don't know why that can't be more of a consideration in modern UX.

Re: Burn My Windows

#189

Post by ridethebike »

rapind wrote: post #167
tpmx wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Me too. Desktop "progress" is now sadly now mostly done by Microsoft (geriatric at best) and Apple (mostly just implementing the new graphical design whims every year).

My god I wish companies would stop iterating on desktop “default” design. The only features on a Mac I use are Cmd+space and Cmd+tab. Beyond that it’s just a host. Every time they add crap I have to find and disable it all. By all means make cool stuff but also make it opt in.

So much this.

Things I need my OS to do are: run my apps (office/browser/games), connect my devices (printers/game controllers/displays), basic file operations (copy/paste/delete)

And while doing this be: secure, reliable, out of my way.

All these adding people/chat/weather widgets "innovations" (looking at you, msft) make me throw my hand up in the air and ask "why", I wish they would spend that time and energy on security and reliability instead.

Re: Burn My Windows

#190

Post by laumars »

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #184
laumars wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Good for you that you had this experience but this is the standard talking point I have been hearing for 15 years. Which is entirely anecdotal. I’ve done a considerable amount of research on this topic over the last 20 years and for the at least 10 years of it the actual main reason Windows users don’t like Linux is simply because it’s not like Windows. It doesn’t matter how much better Linux might be or how crappy…

> I’ve done a considerable amount of research on this topic over the last 20 years and for the at least 10 years of it the actual main reason Windows users don’t like Linux is simply because it’s not like Windows. It doesn’t matter how much better Linux might be or how crappy Windows might get, if people are comfortable in one thing then they generally don’t like switching to another thing that behaves differently. A…

> There is a difference between just liking the way things behave because you're comfortable with it and preferring the way it behaves because it is better.

indeed there is. However the vast majority of people fall into the former category while assuming theyre the latter category.

Or to put it another way, everyone cannot be right that their preference is technically superior. Ergo our preferences must be subjective.

> To this day there is a good chance that if I want to run the latest version of any piece of Linux software I will have to compile it from source like it's the 1970s in order to do so. That is a problem that Windows and MacOS have never had, and the Linux Desktop community has been very slow and reluctant to do anything about.

That’s a huuuuge generalisation there. The truth is it depends on the Linux distribution (Arch and Fedora are bleeding edge, Debian and CentOS are not) what repos you have enabled (stable, testing, etc) and even what software you’re running. Eg some niche cross platform thing on GitHub might require compiling for all OSs never mind just Linux.

Linux will see more regular platform updates than Windows and macOS where you’re limited to service packs and new OS releases. You also don’t have to wait until “patch Thursday” for patches on Linux. They get released as soon as they’ve passed build and test pipelines.

So there are definitely plenty of examples where the generalisation is a way off. But for the sake of impartiality I do agree that some niche software and some distros will make you compile from source. However its definitely not the norm for common software and hasn’t been for 20 years.

> Hell, even today as Flatpak beings to emerge as the dominant cross-distro application packaging format, it is still lacking basic features of 1980s Desktop software distribution and gets a lot of flak from the community for existing at all.

Yeah cross platform package management is broken in Linux. Snap, flatpak, etc. all have problems. Personally I think the real issue is that Linux is trying to emulate Windows and Mac with portable installers. If you want a platform where the responsibility is on the user to download and install applications manually then there are already mature options available for that (Windows and macOS). So there’s no point trying to compete there. Where Linux excels is with its package management taking the risk of application installation away from the operator.

This won’t be to everyone’s preference but that’s fine because not every platform should behave the same. Just because a specific paradigm makes sense for one platform doesn’t mean it makes sense for every platform.

Just look at how fundamentally different remote management on Windows vs Linux is. Windows is based around RPCs while Linux is based around scripting. Neither is wrong or right. Both work effectively despite being completely different approaches.

And here lies the problem with people who say one is better than another: they look at the differences and say “I don’t like it” but think it’s a technical decision when in fact it’s just an emotive response based on what they’re comfort zone is.

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