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I Lost My Past (2017)

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Re: I Lost My Past (2017)

#181

Post by the_af »

refurb wrote: post #176
the_af wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Of course Ho Chi Minh would win - there were no free elections in the North (100% of votes went for him!) and substantial support in the South. I wouldn’t call that a fair and free election. False. The US own internal documents stated they believed Ho Chi Minh held enormous popular support, especially in the countryside. They cancelled the elections and instead propped up a bloody dictatorship. Nothing natural abou…

Oh sure, he had a lot of support. But it was entirely clear the North was not going to allow any free vote. They had already purged any opposition long ago. So are you arguing that South Korea is a “completely artificial, incompetent and repressive” country? It was also a dictatorship after the war for about 20 years. But Vietnam still is today after 50.

> So are you arguing that South Korea

No, I'm arguing about Vietnam. Please try not to sidetrack the conversation.

Fact: Ho Chi Minh had huge popular support and would have won general elections, a fact the US didn't like at that stage and so they made sure it didn't happen. Instead, they propped up one of the most brutal dictatorships in the region, one so bad they had to allow its removal and the assassination of their puppet dictator.

They also destroyed South Vietnam, killing villagers, poisoning the land and bombing the hell out of North Vietnam.

And they failed because they were foreign aggressors.

Fact: the US doesn't get to choose the form of government of other countries. When they try to do it by military force, they are invaders and aggressors.

You can argue until you're blue in the face, those are the facts.

Re: I Lost My Past (2017)

#182

Post by the_af »

refurb wrote: post #177
sofixa wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And the North would never had existed without USSR and China’s backing. I’m not sure what your point is? The liberated themselves from Japanese and then French control, with limited ( some arms) outside help, so that's just false.

False. They never would have liberated themselves from the French unless the USSR won the war in 1949 and funnel support to them.

False. They would have rid themselves from the French sooner or later. They had the will, and the French were foreign invaders. The age of colonialism was over by then; it was a mistake of the French that it took them so long to notice.

They ended up getting rid of the mightiest army in the world, after all.

Re: I Lost My Past (2017)

#183

Post by refurb »

the_af wrote: post #180
refurb wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s a pretty impressive rewriting of history! Ho Chi Minh admired the US then shortly after taking power his government exacted brutal land reforms even the hardliners had to call out as “going too far”. You’re doing an awful lot of hand waving to explain why Vietnam still doesn’t enact the freedom “they admire so much”. Your claim that Ho Chi Minh’s “disappointment from lack of US support” is the reason why Vietn…

Please stop with the namecalling. Last warning. > Ho Chi Minh admired the US Which is a matter of public record. > his government exacted brutal land reforms even the hardliners had to call out as “going too far”. This has nothing to do with anything. Please try not to sidetrack the conversation: the Viet Minh and its successors were fighting a struggle of independence, the US could have been their ally but instead c…

What name calling?

You’re missing my point entirely. Ho Chi Minh claimed he admired the US’ freedoms. Then once the North was established, his government enacted brutal land reforms that even the communists said went too far.

What I’m saying is words are cheap and Ho Chi Minh never admired the US’ freedoms (maybe theoretically?), they were just empty words to try and get a powerful ally on his side.

That’s clearly a factual statement when you realize the VCP has zero intention, even today, of giving the people of Vietnam the same freedoms you claim Ho Chi Minh so admired, almost 60 years after taking power over all of Vietnam.

And yes, the Phoenix program was effective because it used the same tactics against the communists they used against villages in the South. It's pretty rich seeing the North call out the US and South foe those tactics - truly the pot calling the kettle black.

Re: I Lost My Past (2017)

#184

Post by the_af »

refurb wrote: post #178
the_af wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And the North would never had existed without USSR and China’s backing. False. Did you know the Viet Minh initially counted with support from the US? When it was an anti Japanese struggle, of course. Initial US assessments even thought the French should get the fuck out; those sentiments were overruled by others in the US, sadly. The Vietnamese struggle was a struggle of national liberation. Aided from the outside…

So you’d agree Vietnam today is in better shape than say South Korea? Or Taiwan? Should the Us have not intervened there?

One last time: in the struggle against colonialism, the colonial power is always in the wrong and the locals struggling for freedom are always in the right (within the context of their struggle, of course -- they are free to fuck up afterwards as is any nation's right to self determination).

The US sided with a colonial power and was therefore wrong.

They also destroyed the country in their alleged attempt to "save" it. They were savage about it. Brutal.

Please stop it with the sidetracking attempts. We're talking about Vietnam, whether the US was the aggressor, and whether calling it the liberation of Saigon makes sense.

Re: I Lost My Past (2017)

#185

Post by refurb »

the_af wrote: post #181
refurb wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh sure, he had a lot of support. But it was entirely clear the North was not going to allow any free vote. They had already purged any opposition long ago. So are you arguing that South Korea is a “completely artificial, incompetent and repressive” country? It was also a dictatorship after the war for about 20 years. But Vietnam still is today after 50.

> So are you arguing that South Korea No, I'm arguing about Vietnam. Please try not to sidetrack the conversation. Fact: Ho Chi Minh had huge popular support and would have won general elections, a fact the US didn't like at that stage and so they made sure it didn't happen. Instead, they propped up one of the most brutal dictatorships in the region, one so bad they had to allow its removal and the assassination of t…

Your facts are wrong. And I’m sorry you cant see the similarities between Korea and Vietnam. There was plenty of support for Kim Ill-Sung in South Korea as well, but there was plenty of opposition too.

The North was a brutal dictatorship propped up by China and the USSR.

The South was a brutal dictatorship propped up by the West.

Both had Vietnamese supporters. Again, to dismiss the South as not a real country is just twisting facts. It was a civil war between two Vietnamese factions and the South lost. Those are the facts.

The mythology the North has created around the war (just like every country does) is helped to keep its grip on power but is a gross oversimplification.

And you’re right, the US doesn’t get to choose which government a country has. But neither does Vietnam when it comes to Cambodia or Laos, but hey, they hasn’t stopped them!

Re: I Lost My Past (2017)

#186

Post by the_af »

refurb wrote: post #185
the_af wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So are you arguing that South Korea No, I'm arguing about Vietnam. Please try not to sidetrack the conversation. Fact: Ho Chi Minh had huge popular support and would have won general elections, a fact the US didn't like at that stage and so they made sure it didn't happen. Instead, they propped up one of the most brutal dictatorships in the region, one so bad they had to allow its removal and the assassination of t…

Your facts are wrong. And I’m sorry you cant see the similarities between Korea and Vietnam. There was plenty of support for Kim Ill-Sung in South Korea as well, but there was plenty of opposition too. The North was a brutal dictatorship propped up by China and the USSR. The South was a brutal dictatorship propped up by the West. Both had Vietnamese supporters. Again, to dismiss the South as not a real country is jus…

> There was plenty of support for Kim Ill-Sung in South Korea as well, but there was plenty of opposition too.

Please stop trying to sidetrack the conversation.

> The North was a brutal dictatorship propped up by China and the USSR.

No, it was a nationalist anti colonial government that aimed at the reunification and independence of Vietnam.

> Both had Vietnamese supporters. Again, to dismiss the South as not a real country is just twisting facts

It was an artificial creation imposed upon the Vietnamese by external parties; hence not a real country.

> The mythology the North has created around the war

Oh, there is a mythology alright! There's a whole myth created about this war, mostly by the foreign country that fought it -- to devastating effect to both Vietnam and the invaders who fought in it -- and who claims to be freedom loving and is still trying to heal from the wounds and the nonsense the war it inflicted caused upon thousands. This mythology is necessary in order to reconcile their aspirations to being a beacon of freedom and the fact they acted on the side of colonial oppressors.

> But neither does Vietnam when it comes to Cambodia or Laos, but hey, they hasn’t stopped them

But we are not talking about that, are we? If we were, we could condemn Vietnam's interference with other countries. Regrettably, this was about Vietnam's own struggle for independence and US interference with said independence.

When the US was fighting for its own independence, that's good. When they were stopping and interfering with another country's, that's bad. The same country can act good and bad at times. This was a case when the US was bad.

Re: I Lost My Past (2017)

#187

Post by the_af »

refurb wrote: post #183
the_af wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please stop with the namecalling. Last warning. > Ho Chi Minh admired the US Which is a matter of public record. > his government exacted brutal land reforms even the hardliners had to call out as “going too far”. This has nothing to do with anything. Please try not to sidetrack the conversation: the Viet Minh and its successors were fighting a struggle of independence, the US could have been their ally but instead c…

What name calling? You’re missing my point entirely. Ho Chi Minh claimed he admired the US’ freedoms. Then once the North was established, his government enacted brutal land reforms that even the communists said went too far. What I’m saying is words are cheap and Ho Chi Minh never admired the US’ freedoms (maybe theoretically?), they were just empty words to try and get a powerful ally on his side. That’s clearly a…

> It's pretty rich seeing the North call out the US and South foe those tactics - truly the pot calling the kettle black.

Let me correct you: it's not "the North". It's called Vietnam and the US waged a war against it (mostly against South Vietnam).

Also, it's the world -- we -- who is appalled at the way the US behaved in Vietnam, including its assassination campaigns, Agent Orange, Napalm, mass murder, etc.

As for what may have happened, unlike you I'm not a mind reader to know what was false or faked. I do know if the US hadn't waged war on Vietnam, things would have been way better, if only because many thousands more Vietnamese would have lived, the country wouldn't have been destroyed and who knows, an unscathed Vietnam might have turned way more sympathetic to the West.

Re: I Lost My Past (2017)

#188

Post by vidarh »

refurb wrote: post #175
vidarh wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you admire someone and they turn out to be a bully, just maybe you change your mind. The US has a history of this - Castro wooed the US too. His party didn't even describe itself as socialist until years after the US slammed the door in his face and the Soviets didn't. Once the Soviets had bought him, Castro made concession after concession that he could have made to the US instead.

Or, stay with me here, they were just saying what they thought would help them get power? To claim Ho Chi Minh or Castro would have been freedom loving leaders is laughable.

I didn't claim they'd be freedom loving leaders. You're projecting assumptions onto what I said.

What is a matter of fact is that both attempted to get US support before they turned elsewhere. And that support could have come with strings that might have produced much better outcomes.

Just like it did when Castro turned to the Soviets. He proved he could be bought, but the US was unwilling to buy.

As for Ho, he was more concerned with self determination and anyi-imperialism than the specifics of the resulting regime. US support with strings there too could have avoided millions of dead and gotten a more moderate regime.

Re: I Lost My Past (2017)

#189

Post by agumonkey »

torginus wrote: post #104
_ugfj wrote: post #18

I grew up in Hungary where the socialist leadership (it is a very interesting fact how much they avoided the word communism and used socialism everywhere but I digress) was hell bent on continuously raising the standard of living because Janos Kadar was afraid of another revolution. (As his deranged last speech in 1989 revealed, he had nightmares for decades of his comrade, Imre Nagy, the prime minister in 1956, whom…

Well, if you want hopelessness I suggest you live in contemporary capitalist Hungary - in many ways, the country's fate is similar to the one described in the article, it has turned into a Western vassal, where nothing worth having, no company with meaningful profits is actually owned by Hungarians. The problems about life you've described in your post are still valid today - we the country has become a nearshore col…

You now, I think it's broader than that. It's not western it's giant companies. Even.i' France there's a tiny feeling that as a nation we don't do much for our own. GAFAM organize a lot, China tech sector does the rest.

It seems that we're on a sociological plateau.

Re: I Lost My Past (2017)

#190

Post by unionpivo »

gigel82 wrote: post #60

I have friends that immigrated from Romania, and I was surprised by their very different stories of living as a teenager in the 80s under communism. One was enjoying vacations abroad, imported goods and generally mostly living a western lifestyle while the other was struggling to survive. Later learned that the former's father was an informant for Ceausescu's secret police (Securitate) - a butcher by profession but a…

I lived in Yugoslavia also. And no, what he described was common, at least how I remember. YU did have secret police, but it wasn't as bad as in countries under Soviets.

Generally life in ex YU from in 70s and on was pretty decent. We have better standards now (Slovenia), but some parts have worse living conditions than when they were in YU. And the gap between haves and have not is ever increasing. So author is not alone in what he is thinking.

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