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I bought 1000 meters of wire to settle a physics debate [video]

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Re: I bought 1000 meters of wire to settle a physics debate [video]

#181

Why wouldn't a simpler explanation be that the wires produce a radio/electromagnetic wave and that wave gets picked up and induces a current, which is how radio transmitters receivers work?

What's going on -in time- is a lot more complex than the 'steady-state, Occam's razor' simplicity most of us (outside of EE) were fed. One example: the math you'll see in the analysis of 'skin effect'. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin_effect I hope one of the outcomes of this discussion is that someone will tackle explaining how AC power gets from source to load, and what 'earth grounds' have to do with that ... an…

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Re: I bought 1000 meters of wire to settle a physics debate [video]

#182
post #76

So, I genuinely do not get the "controversy" over the Veritasium video. AFAIU, the entire point of the video was to show that electricity travels not through wires but via electric fields ("through the air" so to speak). To illustrate this, he sets up an experiment with parameters such that the conclusion can only mean that some electricity has traveled to the bulb before any could arrive through/around the wires. He…

The way he describes it implies a speed-of-light violation! He's setting up a scenario where he can transfer information (by ON/OFF of a light) at 1/c.

That's the controversy. It's great that he found a fun way to explain transmission theory and how wires are effectively antennas, but he's taking the same thing he initially calls out (how the general understanding most of us have is a lie) and making it even worse in another direction.

Re: I bought 1000 meters of wire to settle a physics debate [video]

#183
post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there really an epidemic of EE's who know how to use a field solver, but don't know to consider coupling between signal lines? My intuition is the opposite of yours: most EEs actually know the ideas from the Veritasium video. Therefore, the way EE is taught is not a lie, since it includes that knowledge. (For completeness, the alternate take is that Veritasium was claiming "the way _elementary_ EE is taught is a l…

> Is there really an epidemic of EE's who know how to use a field solver, but don't know to consider coupling between signal lines? Now, I'm not an EE myself, just someone who took undergraduate electrodynamics, decided to read up the subject, and found some truly excellent videos on youtube. But, at 1:00:23 in that same video I linked before ( https://youtu.be/QG0Apol-oj0?t=3623 ), Rick Hartley says this: > I spend…

I think you're correct for the most part. I think us EEs tend to compartmentalize the information we've learned in school; while we may technically have all the "tools", knowing when to apply that knowledge isn't always apparent.

I definitely think there is a lack of applied EE knowledge; PCB layout with an emphasis on signal integrity etc would make an excellent undergrad course in school.

In terms of PCB layout -- Eric & Rick have been absolute goldmines in terms of the knowledge they've put out there. I can also say that both of the FAANG companies I worked with sent us EEs to their training seminars, which were super useful (and shows that there is recognition in the industry that EEs need better training on these sorts of issues). I also think there is a bit of an art to it -- you learn when layout issues are significant or not, and can identify them by eye. This is something you learn by experience. For me, I've found field solvers are a great way to validate / hone my intuition.

Re: I bought 1000 meters of wire to settle a physics debate [video]

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not a fan of the “big leagues” of science YouTube, many seem to have been tainted by the attention algorithm game.

Especially Mark Rober. His videos aren't really about science at all, but rather attention-grabbing feats like package thief glitter bombs, squirrel mazes, and chemical volcano explosions—pure entertainment. None of his videos teach you anything like Steve Mould's videos do.

Yes, and he might even agree, since he now uses his youtube videos to advertise his $249 creative engineering course on monthly.com.

Re: I bought 1000 meters of wire to settle a physics debate [video]

#185
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As much as I love Veritasium, I feel the OP video is better than his. Actually doing the experiment is really good, and it honestly feels like he was fishing for another debate like the faster than wind car by giving only a super theoretical and unintuitive explanation. (I don't have any real evidence of that, but it does /feel/ like it.) I also wonder what would happen if, instead of a setup like this: ┏───────light…

Hey, did you make that ascii art by hand or did you use a tool I don't know about? If it's a tool I'd like to use it :)

Just copy pasting from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Box-drawing_character

Re: I bought 1000 meters of wire to settle a physics debate [video]

#186
post #154
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's two bits of controversy: 1) Slander: He claims that the way EE is taught is a "lie" but leaves out the many ways that standard EE models agree with his result. 2) Clickbait / inadequate explanation: he leaves out many details in order to make his experiment seem far more mind-blowing that it really is.* Critique 1 can be countered by saying he is targeting a lay audience (say, they took 1 high school physics…

> He claims that the way EE is taught is a "lie" The thing is: this is sort of true. Now, all electrical engineers are very familiar with transmission line theory, that's pretty much their bread and butter. And all EEs know that if you're not working with well-defined transmission lines (like coaxial cables), you need to use a field solver. 2D field solvers are often sufficient, but if not 3D field solvers can and wi…

> Maxwell's equations are the correct description of how electricity works

If you want to be really pedantic, QED is the most accurate description, not Maxwell equations.

Re: I bought 1000 meters of wire to settle a physics debate [video]

#187
post #76

So, I genuinely do not get the "controversy" over the Veritasium video. AFAIU, the entire point of the video was to show that electricity travels not through wires but via electric fields ("through the air" so to speak). To illustrate this, he sets up an experiment with parameters such that the conclusion can only mean that some electricity has traveled to the bulb before any could arrive through/around the wires. He…

He sets up the parameters so that the bulb would turn on by that little electricity

That's the bit where he's factually wrong. He's made this illogical world where the tiny amounts of electricity in field lines well outside the wire trigger the lamp but the leakage current and other sources of current don't. If you're going to be pedantic about something you have to be pedantic about the whole thing, damn it. Veritasium's video is like saying "water flowing through pipes is a LIE" because some molecules of water make it through the various seals and diffuse across the outer surface of the pipe.

Re: I bought 1000 meters of wire to settle a physics debate [video]

#188
post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there really an epidemic of EE's who know how to use a field solver, but don't know to consider coupling between signal lines? My intuition is the opposite of yours: most EEs actually know the ideas from the Veritasium video. Therefore, the way EE is taught is not a lie, since it includes that knowledge. (For completeness, the alternate take is that Veritasium was claiming "the way _elementary_ EE is taught is a l…

> Is there really an epidemic of EE's who know how to use a field solver, but don't know to consider coupling between signal lines? Now, I'm not an EE myself, just someone who took undergraduate electrodynamics, decided to read up the subject, and found some truly excellent videos on youtube. But, at 1:00:23 in that same video I linked before ( https://youtu.be/QG0Apol-oj0?t=3623 ), Rick Hartley says this: > I spend…

EEs tend to be pretty practical in the same sense that mechanical engineers are pretty practical: they build stuff in ways that they (think they) understand to give them as good a chance as producing something that works the first time around. But the devil is in the details and mechanical engineers have one huge advantage: they deal with stuff at a scale where getting it wrong will have visible consequences. An electrical engineer getting their assumptions about electric fields emanation wrong is going to have a difficult problem to solve, electric fields don't readily visualize and without a very solid understanding of the theory it is extremely easy to mess this up. This is one reason why people tend to be conservative, if you do it 'like it is usually done' then the chances of discovering new and potentially expensive ways to mess it up go down a bit.

I once - long ago - rebuilt a transmitter that I had designed using 'regular' components in the air on a circuit board. It took 6 tries to get it perfect, and every time I learned about a new assumption that wasn't exactly spelled out anywhere but that really made a huge difference in how the circuit operated.

The electrical schematic was identical every time, the only thing that changed was the topology in space. And the difference between iteration #1 and iteration #6 from a performance point of view was huge, much larger than you would have ever thought could be the consequence of the very subtle changes to the various trace geometries.

No matter how much you know - or don't know - about the way electrical fields interact with each other be prepared to be surprised, this stuff is simply hard when your circuitry goes beyond a minimum level of complexity.

Interesting tidbit: many years later when designing the windmill stator/rotor/coil assembly some of this knowledge came in quite handy.

Re: I bought 1000 meters of wire to settle a physics debate [video]

#189
post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is there really an epidemic of EE's who know how to use a field solver, but don't know to consider coupling between signal lines? Now, I'm not an EE myself, just someone who took undergraduate electrodynamics, decided to read up the subject, and found some truly excellent videos on youtube. But, at 1:00:23 in that same video I linked before ( https://youtu.be/QG0Apol-oj0?t=3623 ), Rick Hartley says this: > I spend…

I think you're correct for the most part. I think us EEs tend to compartmentalize the information we've learned in school; while we may technically have all the "tools", knowing when to apply that knowledge isn't always apparent. I definitely think there is a lack of applied EE knowledge; PCB layout with an emphasis on signal integrity etc would make an excellent undergrad course in school. In terms of PCB layout --…

> PCB layout with an emphasis on signal integrity etc would make an excellent undergrad course in school.

This is strongly frequency and wave-form dependent. Just the difference between square waves and sine waves and say a few KHz to a few 10's of MHz can have dramatic consequences on how hard it will be to get a circuit to behave in the way you intended it to.

I think one of the bigger insights you can have when designing circuitry is that you may be working on a digital circuit but from an electrical engineering point of view digital simply doesn't exist, that's just a signalling convention, there is only analog.

Re: I bought 1000 meters of wire to settle a physics debate [video]

#190
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

fwiw, I definitely was given the wires and electrons are like a pipe for water somewhere during schooling, and it was interesting to hear a deeper explanation.

and during this discussion of electrons flowing, did it now also contain discussion on the fields produced around the wire? did I just have an exceptional teacher (I know my high school physics teacher was one of those teachers and am indebted to him), or did I just pay attention? To the point, during the time that I was learning fields produced around a wire carrying a current, I was also learning recording studio a…

fields: it was mentioned there were fields :). Nothing as to why one would care; just that fields existed.

Your teacher sounds awesome.

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