Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates • Hacker News Board

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#181

Post by throwaway984393 » Wed, Dec 01, 2021, 4:17 PM UTC

hestefisk wrote: post #61

Whilst thousands of healthcare workers in the US —- those who are supposed to be proponents of public health measures and rational, scientific thinking - refuse to get vaccinated, ultimately resulting in stockpiles of vaccines getting destroyed … people in third world countries cannot get adequate access to vaccines. This is madness.

I think of it less as madness and more as the constant structure of power in homo sapiens society.

For thousands of years, privileged citizens of empires have gotten more rights and better treatment than non-citizens and foreigners. Some humans are just born into a position where they don't need to fear for their life or fight to survive. This is true even in the US; all over the country, in the same square mile, you will find people starving, and people throwing away good food; people rejecting a vaccine just to exercise their personal power, and people waiting 8 hours outside in freezing cold to get one. Our societies seem destined for injustice.

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#182

Post by wycy » Wed, Dec 01, 2021, 4:17 PM UTC

bko wrote: post #3

> Doughty said the CMS lacked the authority to issue a vaccine mandate that would require more than 2 million unvaccinated healthcare workers to get a coronavirus shot. > "There is no question that mandating a vaccine to 10.3 million healthcare workers is something that should be done by Congress, not a government agency," wrote Doughty. That's a good point. You can agree that its within the federal authority to mand…

> Could you imagine a news report about how the much touted vaccine efficacy of 95% didn't really pan out? It's true. Everyone was around 6 months ago and remembered the efficacy levels being thrown around. Now people are being gaslit to thinking they didn't hear what they heard and its about hospitalization. All because being honest could hurt the cause. And yes, vaccine efficacy was 95% and yes it does mean what you think it means [0]

This is not true at all. Media has been talking openly about "waning immunity" and "declining effectiveness" all along.

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#183

Post by b5 » Wed, Dec 01, 2021, 4:17 PM UTC

q1w2 wrote: post #158

hestefisk wrote: post #61

Whilst thousands of healthcare workers in the US —- those who are supposed to be proponents of public health measures and rational, scientific thinking - refuse to get vaccinated, ultimately resulting in stockpiles of vaccines getting destroyed … people in third world countries cannot get adequate access to vaccines. This is madness.

What's telling is the contrast in covid vaccination rates between nurses vs doctors. The vast majority of doctors get themselves vaccinated, whereas a large portion of nurses only get vaccinated as needed legally.

That does say… something. I’m just not sure what.

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#184

Post by chronofar » Wed, Dec 01, 2021, 4:17 PM UTC

curiousgal wrote: post #164

CosmicShadow wrote: post #48

I wish headlines would include the country it refers to when it says nationwide

HN is mostly centred around the U.S.

Rejecting a compulsory measure not “anti-science,” and using that term in that manner displays a dogmatism that is decidedly unscientific. It is quite coherent to accept the consensus epidemiological realities of COVID, the efficacy and safety of the vaccines, and simultaneously disagree with compulsory measures to enforce treatment.

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#185

Post by mattzito » Wed, Dec 01, 2021, 4:17 PM UTC

bko wrote: post #32

mattzito wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that the role of the CMS, as established by congress, is to set the guidelines of care and standards of participation for providers who opt to accept Medicare and Medicaid patients. They set rules for everything from how many hospitals can be owned by a single entity, to what sorts of qualifications are required for hospital administrators, to what types of medical orders are allowed to be given to patients. T…

> to what types of medical orders are allowed to be given to patients Suppose an anti-abortion president gets elected and he elects someone as head and tells them that health care providers that accept medicare or medicaid cannot provide abortions. Not making it illegal per-se, but just for the providers that accept medicare or medicaid for any of their services. You okay with this as well?

No, of course not, but that's not what I was referring to - I was referring to, are doctors allowed to leave standing orders for patients? Can they give them over the phone? What kind of procedures can nurses and NPs order? Those sorts of things.

Your example is a covered procedure, some of which is defined by the CMS, but much of it is defined by federal statute that dictates what classes of procedure are covered by medicaid/medicare. To go to your example specifically, federal statute ALREADY limits medicaid abortion coverage to abortions arising from rape, incest, or that put the health of the mother at risk. 16 states go beyond that and cover abortion in more cases, but they pay for that with their own money (which is also allowed statutorily). So in your case, what the new CMS head was declaring is unlawful on its face, as this is something that congress has specifically addressed.

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#186

Post by refurb » Wed, Dec 01, 2021, 4:18 PM UTC

adrr wrote: post #117

Chris2048 wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then just ban men from having them as well. > Women have a constitutional right to get an abortion. Do they? Where is that written? EDIT: the vague "life, liberty, or property" clause as interpreted by Roe vs Wade. This is such a blank-cheque it may as well not be in the constitution as in hands all power to the interpretation of the courts.

" the vague "life, liberty, or property" clause as interpreted by Roe vs Wade. This is such a blank-cheque it may as well not be in the constitution as in hands all power to the interpretation of the courts." If you read federalist papers or any of the writings of founders on the constitution. The constitution is a living document that is decided by the courts. It is really hard to have a fruitful debate without peop…

No, it’s not a living document open to the whims of interpretation or flavor of the month.

That’s how you end up with Russia taking over Odessa due to “national security” reasons.

If it’s a living document it’s not worth the paper it’s written on.

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#187

Post by smohare » Wed, Dec 01, 2021, 4:18 PM UTC

bko wrote: post #3

> Doughty said the CMS lacked the authority to issue a vaccine mandate that would require more than 2 million unvaccinated healthcare workers to get a coronavirus shot. > "There is no question that mandating a vaccine to 10.3 million healthcare workers is something that should be done by Congress, not a government agency," wrote Doughty. That's a good point. You can agree that its within the federal authority to mand…

In what universe should such important public health decisions be made by elected officials largely ignorant of basic science, whom also represent also represent some of the most uneducated and misinformed people alive?

There’s a reason, for example, why we don’t let the market or public opinion dictate the efficiency or safety of drugs.

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#188

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Dec 01, 2021, 4:18 PM UTC

hestefisk wrote: post #61

Whilst thousands of healthcare workers in the US —- those who are supposed to be proponents of public health measures and rational, scientific thinking - refuse to get vaccinated, ultimately resulting in stockpiles of vaccines getting destroyed … people in third world countries cannot get adequate access to vaccines. This is madness.

[deleted]

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#189

Post by chronofar » Wed, Dec 01, 2021, 4:19 PM UTC

docflabby wrote: post #169

If we can't convince medical workers to recieve a vaccine from their peers we are doing something wrong.

Convince or compel? Do you expect all healthcare workers to receive any widely prescribed treatment? Is there no room for dissent in your mind?

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#190

Post by _ea1k » Wed, Dec 01, 2021, 4:19 PM UTC

bko wrote: post #3

> Doughty said the CMS lacked the authority to issue a vaccine mandate that would require more than 2 million unvaccinated healthcare workers to get a coronavirus shot. > "There is no question that mandating a vaccine to 10.3 million healthcare workers is something that should be done by Congress, not a government agency," wrote Doughty. That's a good point. You can agree that its within the federal authority to mand…

I agree with your facts, but I think its a little disingenuous to only highlight that one aspect of the context. It wasn't that many months before that when a lot of people were willing to accept 50+% VE and delighted if it could approach 70%.

I remember that too, and I think its needed context.