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California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

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Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#181

Post by threatofrain »

nostrademons wrote: post #130

The irony is that this is probably going to exacerbate social injustice. Cupertino kids are going to be taking extracurricular math through RSM or Kumon in elementary school, and then the Cupertino school district (in the article) says that they have no intention to comply with the recommendations. SF kids aren't going to be exposed to algebra until 9th grade and then get a rude awakening in college when they realize…

It's notable that Cupertino has some remarkable public schools, with high schools that have about half of their math faculty as Calculus teachers, and half of the students incoming from junior high are on track to finish Calculus by their junior year. Some students continue their math education at local colleges.

Part of the success is most certainly the student culture, which pushes far harder than the faculty. It's one thing for a school to offer opportunity for advanced math (and in that sense Khan Academy already offers this); it's quite another for peer pressure to demand it.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#182

Post by unanswered »

nostrademons wrote: post #130

The irony is that this is probably going to exacerbate social injustice. Cupertino kids are going to be taking extracurricular math through RSM or Kumon in elementary school, and then the Cupertino school district (in the article) says that they have no intention to comply with the recommendations. SF kids aren't going to be exposed to algebra until 9th grade and then get a rude awakening in college when they realize…

I hate to be that guy, but... it's not irony.

In this case, it's design. Increasing social injustice is the whole point, because that ensures increased political power for those who campaign on social justice.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#183

Post by seanmcdirmid »

nemothekid wrote: post #161
542458 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Grade nine is 14-15 years of age in the US. I agree with you WRT age appropriate-ness. Just because something can or has been introduced at a certain age does not mean that is optimal. I recall a study I saw recently that showed delaying introducing one subject - it may have been math - to very young students had negligible impacts on their scores (compared to students who were introduced earlier) a few years later.…

Wouldn't that make Grade 12 18 ~ 19 years of age? Has the school age been moved up a year? I vaguely remember the oldest kids in high school being 18.

If you turn 15 in 9th grade, you will turn 18 in 12th grade.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#184

Post by panic »

The way math is taught in primary school is a disaster. Paul Lockhart's "A Mathematician’s Lament" puts it better than I could, and is worth reading in full (it's hard to find just one quote to provide here): https://www.maa.org/external_archive/devlin/LockhartsLament.....

Maybe one section that's relevant here is the one on "pseudo-mathematics":

> The cultural problem is a self-perpetuating monster: students learn about math from their teachers, and teachers learn about it from their teachers, so this lack of understanding and appreciation for mathematics in our culture replicates itself indefinitely. Worse, the perpetuation of this “pseudo-mathematics,” this emphasis on the accurate yet mindless manipulation of symbols, creates its own culture and its own set of values. Those who have become adept at it derive a great deal of self-esteem from their success. The last thing they want to hear is that math is really about raw creativity and aesthetic sensitivity. Many a graduate student has come to grief when they discover, after a decade of being told they were “good at math,” that in fact they have no real mathematical talent and are just very good at following directions. Math is not about following directions, it’s about making new directions.

Many people on this website did well at the pseudo-mathematics taught in schools and think of themselves as being improved by learning it. If this (pseudo-)math is what distinguishes the "smart kids" from the rest, our "smart kids" will be harmed by delaying it. But what if the pseudo-math and the concept of "smart kid" it creates is actually harmful, both to the practice of real math and to the kids' own sense of self-worth?

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#185

Post by bko »

542458 wrote: post #112
denkmoon wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How old is a 9th grade student in the US? My cohort started Algebra in year 7 in Australia, which is 12/13 years old. And similar to GP's proposal, we learn age appropriate topics every single year, every single week.

Grade nine is 14-15 years of age in the US. I agree with you WRT age appropriate-ness. Just because something can or has been introduced at a certain age does not mean that is optimal. I recall a study I saw recently that showed delaying introducing one subject - it may have been math - to very young students had negligible impacts on their scores (compared to students who were introduced earlier) a few years later.…

> The students with a delayed introduction caught up so quickly that the delay didn’t matter

Yes and there are some kids that act up or learn to hate education and the system for being forced into what amounts to remedial classes. Sometimes the brightest children are the most difficult precisely because they're not being challenged.

The ideal would be to have every student learn at their own pace. Some children could comprehend algebra in 8th grade, others may never fully comprehend it.

Obviously that's impossible at scale. So the best we can do is to separate kids based on ability and interest. Some children can grasp more advanced concepts at an earlier age, while others struggle. That's why generally in schools we have standard classes, special education and gifted classes. The best schools separate it even further offering additional lessons or tutoring to children that are especially curious or require more work.

Everyone benefits. This is common sense.

There's no such thing as "appropriate topics" for an age. It's all child specific.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#186

Post by carabiner »

fsn4dN69ey wrote: post #28

My parents introduced it to me at home around 4th-5th grade? So I was ~9-10yo? Not sure why delaying it will help, if anything the earlier the better. Everything I hear about "equity in education" seems to be making it worse, but more equally I guess. Like another poster already mentioned, reminds me of the Harrison Bergeron story by Vonnegut - seems like we are rapidly approaching that point. http://www.tnellen.com/…

Not all students are like you. I went to a low-ranked university my first year before transferring out. I met freshmen who really struggled with basic concepts, like what a vector is. I'm not sure they would ever get it even with all the tutoring in the world.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#188

Post by john_moscow »

arrakis2021 wrote: post #120

With such an overwhelmingly negative response in the comments on these things, you have to wonder who actually supports this stuff and how is it possible that such a small group yields so much power

Social media bias. If you are happy with your work, you spend your time working. If you love your family, you spend time with them. If you have a rewarding hobby, you enjoy pursuing it. If you are a bitter miserable loser with nothing else to do, you spend your day shitposting on Twitter.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#189

Post by [deleted] »

rootusrootus wrote: post #123
tppiotrowski wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Second grade in Poland I remember problems like this when learning addition and subtraction: 3 + ? = 10 10 - ? = 3

My third grader does simple equations like this in math. This is public school in Oregon. A lot of people in this thread are making big assumptions and just using it as an excuse to trash the American educational system for ideological reasons.

[deleted]

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#190

Post by ryanobjc »

darth_avocado wrote: post #14

Here's a revolutionary idea that pretty much all of the world adopts, if students are having trouble with a topic, get them to do more of it, instead of running away from it. I always find it hilarious that the pre college education in US is so messed up. Instead of doing Algebra 1, Algebra 2, calculus, geometry as one subject that you do in a year and then completely forgetting about it till the next time you have t…

Tell us a little bit about your Indian high school experience. Who were your peers? Who were their parents, where were they from, how wealthy were they? How wealthy was you? Did the school have competitive entry? Did kids get kicked out for failing or doing poorly?
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