Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths • Hacker News Board

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#181

Post by NoblePublius » Tue, Oct 12, 2021, 5:44 PM UTC

colordrops wrote: post #10

The article is discussing the media and government being intentionally vague or even misinformative because they don't trust the public, but it backfires and causes more distrust. The flip side that wasn't discussed is the belittling and censoring of voices that were skeptical of the narratives, which engendered even more distrust. Their strategy of information control backfired, and they doubled down. Now we've got…

You’ve got a huge swath of america who doesn’t want the vaccine because they either have superior natural immunity already OR understand that the virus poses little-to-no-risk to them or their family. Covid is essentially equal to the flu in terms of mortality for people under ~55 and children are virtually immune from serious Covid illness.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#182

Post by Pxtl » Tue, Oct 12, 2021, 5:45 PM UTC

colordrops wrote: post #10

The article is discussing the media and government being intentionally vague or even misinformative because they don't trust the public, but it backfires and causes more distrust. The flip side that wasn't discussed is the belittling and censoring of voices that were skeptical of the narratives, which engendered even more distrust. Their strategy of information control backfired, and they doubled down. Now we've got…

> The flip side that wasn't discussed is the belittling and censoring of voices that were skeptical of the narratives, which engendered even more distrust

Oh yeah, a group of people pushing ideas that got thousands upon thousands of people killed and jammed up ICUs leading to necessary surgeries being postponed by vomiting out a sewage-pipe of bad-faith arguments and disinformation. It's clearly not okay that we were derisive to those statements.

I mean, look how well politely ignoring conspiracy theorists for a decade worked out. That totally had no unforeseen consequences, right?

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#183

Post by ifyoubuildit » Tue, Oct 12, 2021, 5:45 PM UTC

ssully wrote: post #121

ajuc wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If it prevents the next Iraq war and the next Japanese internment, I'm all for it. How would it do that? Government didn't asked people about either of those. And if anything the people responsible for Iraq war will benefit from antivaxers votes.

Seriously. The vendiagram of people who would be for interment of a minority they distrust or a war for retribution, and the people currently rallying against mask/vaccine's would almost be a perfect circle.

> people who would be for interment of a minority they distrust

If the government announced tomorrow that they would be putting all unvaccinated people in internment camps for everyone's safety, how many people do you think would be in favor? I've certainly seen plenty of comments on the internet that would suggest it's not zero.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#184

Post by menacingly » Tue, Oct 12, 2021, 5:45 PM UTC

Well-meaning manipulation of the public is common, and nearly always a terrible idea, because even the relatively uneducated are still pretty good at applying their intuition and seeing that a narrrative doesn't make sense.

Once they've damaged that trust, you end up with these 2 equally stupid polarized positions:

A: "I will do the opposite of whatever the established authorities say"

B: "It's, like, sad that, like, some people don't Science"

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#185

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Oct 12, 2021, 5:45 PM UTC

8eye wrote: post #135

betterunix2 wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Censorship is not what causes large numbers of US citizens to refuse this vaccine. If the Republicans in leadership positions took this seriously from the start and did not go around casting doubt on vaccination far more people would get the vaccine. If the previous president had not politicized the response to COVID and had simply told his followers to do what the CDC says we would have many millions more people get…

no disrespect but i know plenty of liberals who will not get the vaccine. the media turned it into a bi-partisan issue when in all actuality it was a government handling issue in which the rest were used as scapegoats. you remember that they gave themselves raises while the rest of us were told not to go into work. which obviously we are gonna listen if we believe that covid is as dangerous as the scientist were sayi…

[deleted]

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#186

Post by d23 » Tue, Oct 12, 2021, 5:46 PM UTC

alkonaut wrote: post #151

d23 wrote: post #146

> Former US president Donald Trump admitted to playing down the risks of the coronavirus to “reduce panic”. The entire premise of this is absurd.

What’s “this”? that this Trump statement actually made any difference?

That Trump's motivation for literally anything is anything but pure, raw self-interest. It had nothing to do with a fear of panic and everything to do with the number of ways he perceived it in his self-interest to continually deny this was even happening. He gaslit an entire nation.

Judging by the comments I've seen here lately (not yours), I'm really starting to question the company I'm keeping here.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#187

Post by JumpCrisscross » Tue, Oct 12, 2021, 5:48 PM UTC

Ensorceled wrote: post #103

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> vaccine hesitancy will impact vaccines for HPV, measles, HEP B, etc. etc. for generations This will be geographically--and, over time, economically--isolated. Nearly 80% of American adults and over ¾ of eligible Americans have taken at least one dose of a Covid vaccine [1]. In the 65+ population, the figure is 95%. This simply isn't a big group of people, noisy as they may be. (Caveat: the group of people who are p…

Agreed, I think the effect is that there will be pockets where herd immunity is not reached that will be a source of outbreaks for years to come.

> will be a source of outbreaks for years to come

We have experience containing outbreaks in small, isolated groups of high-risk populations. Even in densely populated places, e.g. measles in Williamsburg. The advantage is you know ex ante where the risk is, versus having the possibility of it popping up at random anywhere in the country.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#188

Post by Pxtl » Tue, Oct 12, 2021, 5:48 PM UTC

JasonFruit wrote: post #74

outime wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What’s more interesting is that most of these people will survive this episode (given the known mortality data) and thus will “win” the debate (from their point of view) and will never ever trust the government (or health authorities) again. That’s the biggest downside in reality, and regaining the trust is going to be extremely complicated.

I'm not trying to be flippant when I say that it's good that they will not trust government again, as long as that leads to greater public vigilance against government's creeping excesses and self-serving propaganda. If it prevents the next Iraq war and the next Japanese internment, I'm all for it.

> I'm not trying to be flippant when I say that it's good that they will not trust government again, as long as that leads to greater public vigilance against government's creeping excesses and self-serving propaganda.

These same people are hyper-credulous of extremist wingnuts who manipulate them, just not centrist/progressive politicians and news media. They're only "skeptical" of the mainstream.

When it's climate-change on the table instead of COVID, they will behave the same, actively sabotaging necessary measures to protect the habitability of the Earth.

When your grandkids ask you why your generation doomed them, what will you tell them?

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#189

Post by dragontamer » Tue, Oct 12, 2021, 5:48 PM UTC

greenail wrote: post #134

betterunix2 wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Censorship is not what causes large numbers of US citizens to refuse this vaccine. If the Republicans in leadership positions took this seriously from the start and did not go around casting doubt on vaccination far more people would get the vaccine. If the previous president had not politicized the response to COVID and had simply told his followers to do what the CDC says we would have many millions more people get…

You are assuming "they" trust the Republican leadership. this Gallup poll says only 12% of Americans trust congress. https://news.gallup.com/poll/352316/americans-confidence-maj... Lots of other interesting tidbits about trust in there...

These people who don't trust masks trust ivermectin. Just... talk with them. Its obvious. There's one political party pushing ivermectin as a solution, and the other one doesn't.

They want "their side" to be correct on this issue. They don't trust masks because masks were chosen by "the other side". They don't trust vaccines (despite being pushed by Operation Warp Speed by Mr. Trump) because someone else became president and started pushing vaccines.

It was historically liberals who hated vaccines, not conservatives. Conservatives were the ones making lynch mobs to forcibly vaccinate people (still an ugly history there but... seriously. The entire political world has flipped upside down).

--------

This isn't about the message. Its 100% about who trusts who, and who trusts what. This is a problem of ethos, not of facts or logos.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#190

Post by rytor718 » Tue, Oct 12, 2021, 5:49 PM UTC

bastardoperator wrote: post #11

I agree with the sentiment of this article, but I'm noticing that some folks can't determine fact from fiction even when presented with data that supports the facts or makes them irrefutable. No amount of logic, facts, or transparency will be enough for these folks, and while I can appreciate a skeptic, some of these people are beyond basic help and need professional guidance.

I think in the US our situation was pretty dire from the start in regards to misinformation: the president and his staff were saying a ton of crazy crap from day one, from denial, to downplaying to telling people to effectively drink bleach. Pretty clear cut why we have trust issues right now and people denying any information about Covid at all. I mean the article raises great points, but the US hasn't had that problem, because its' been blatant misinformation with no attempt to tether it to any reality from the start. The trust was never there and I'd love to read more articles about how to repair that.

But it has been interesting to see these dynamics described in the article in play out in other Western countries. I have to agree that we have to trust the public, but its conclusion -- that the people will not trust the government otherwise -- is sage. US currently is struggling to claw back any trust. We're in very dire straits.

EDIT: formatting.