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Doctors and pharmacists ramp up calls for Americans to stop using ivermectin

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Re: Doctors and pharmacists ramp up calls for Americans to stop using ivermectin

#181

Post by Bertio »

willcipriano wrote: post #72

A interesting observation I had recently was that some people who tend to have views around recreational drugs that can be described "live and let live" are up in arms about ivermectin. I know a guy who uses horse tranquilizers recreationally who posts on Facebook everyday about the "morons who are taking horse medicine". Personally I don't care if you use either, it isn't my body. We are in a age where you no longer…

People are frustrated with the resistance to vaccines from people willing to take a lot less sound medicine and like it or not, vaccines are a social issue. It's actually very logical.

Re: Doctors and pharmacists ramp up calls for Americans to stop using ivermectin

#182

Post by choward »

dataflow wrote: post #168
choward wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You cherry picked a video from April after he changed his mind. Here's what he said in March. "There’s no reason to be walking around with a mask. When you’re in the middle of an outbreak, wearing a mask might make people feel a little bit better and it might even block a droplet, but it’s not providing the perfect protection that people think that it is. And, often, there are unintended consequences — people keep fi…

First, no, I didn't cherry-pick anything, it was literally the first video I saw when I searched on YouTube. I certainly didn't even recall your video. Second, if you're going to accuse cherry-picking, look at the very crucial quotes you omitted from your own clip: - Right before your quote he had added very critical qualifiers that you skipped: He specifically said, " Right now , in the United States , there's no re…

> "Right now, in the United States, there's no reason to be walking around with a mask."

And when he did decide we should be walking around with masks he didn't cite any evidence. He said it was because surgical and N95s masks were in short supply.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XHC5Kxxv_w&t=94s

When I was trying to find this video, I came across another video where he speaks in absolute terms that all we need to do is wears masks, social distance and practice good hygiene we would turn around the pandemic. I understand that things change over time, but whenever he speaks, he speaks as if what he is saying is fact. Now we even have vaccines and we clearly haven't turned it around. This is why people don't trust this guy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6P6QrVRJJzU&t=128s

I honestly don't see how you can watch all these videos and still trust this guy. I get that things change, but that's why you don't speak in absolute terms. Words matter.

Re: Doctors and pharmacists ramp up calls for Americans to stop using ivermectin

#183

Post by dataflow »

choward wrote: post #182
dataflow wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, no, I didn't cherry-pick anything, it was literally the first video I saw when I searched on YouTube. I certainly didn't even recall your video. Second, if you're going to accuse cherry-picking, look at the very crucial quotes you omitted from your own clip: - Right before your quote he had added very critical qualifiers that you skipped: He specifically said, " Right now , in the United States , there's no re…

> "Right now, in the United States, there's no reason to be walking around with a mask." And when he did decide we should be walking around with masks he didn't cite any evidence. He said it was because surgical and N95s masks were in short supply. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XHC5Kxxv_w&t=94s When I was trying to find this video, I came across another video where he speaks in absolute terms that all we need to d…

I'm not saying I "trust" him (or don't). I'm saying I've seen no evidence he's been lying, trying to mislead the public, or whatever other maligned accusations people have been hurling at him all over the internet. When something looks like an honest mistake, why cut into others' characters instead of just calling it out as an honest mistake? Especially with half-quoted clips like that? Say he was wrong all you want (though I highly doubt you would've been a better NIH director). But don't cut into his character without evidence (or mine, for that matter). Not only does it take a lot of audacity to suggest you would've foreseen things better than someone who's spent his life dealing with epidemics (and not all unsuccessfully so), but hurling unfounded accusations like that at everyone whose judgment you don't like is just infuriating, insulting, and unproductive.

Re: Doctors and pharmacists ramp up calls for Americans to stop using ivermectin

#184

Post by mach1ne »

azalemeth wrote: post #56

If, like European me, you're wondering how in the nine hells of Baator the US ended up in a situation whereby what a doctor prescribes has somehow become political, I found this primer (on Twitter) by the US Journalist Ben Collins to be highly informative: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1431040456364810242.html If, on the other hand, you live in the US and just want some comedic relief from an excellent medical p…

Read the whole thing and it wasn't very informative.

Re: Doctors and pharmacists ramp up calls for Americans to stop using ivermectin

#185

Post by choward »

dataflow wrote: post #183
choward wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Right now, in the United States, there's no reason to be walking around with a mask." And when he did decide we should be walking around with masks he didn't cite any evidence. He said it was because surgical and N95s masks were in short supply. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XHC5Kxxv_w&t=94s When I was trying to find this video, I came across another video where he speaks in absolute terms that all we need to d…

I'm not saying I "trust" him (or don't). I'm saying I've seen no evidence he's been lying, trying to mislead the public, or whatever other maligned accusations people have been hurling at him all over the internet. When something looks like an honest mistake, why cut into others' characters instead of just calling it out as an honest mistake? Especially with half-quoted clips like that? Say he was wrong all you want…

> When it looks like an honest mistake, why call it a lie instead of an honest mistake?

I linked you to evidence that shows he lied. In the first video he said masks don't work. It clearly wasn't an "honest mistake".

> I highly doubt you would've been a better NIH director

Nice strawman. I never said I would be, but I know one thing for sure: I wouldn't deliberately lie to the American public about something so important.

> But don't cut into his character without evidence

There is plenty of evidence that he's a liar. I don't know what else you need.

> Not only does it take a lot of audacity to suggest you would've foreseen things better

Yet another strawman. I never said that. Are you replying to the right comment?

> hurling unfounded accusations like that at everyone whose judgment you don't like is just infuriating, insulting, and unproductive

The accusation that Fauci deliberately lied? It's pretty founded if you ask me. It's infuriating, insulting, and unproductive to protect someone so obsessively and thinking he can do no wrong.

Re: Doctors and pharmacists ramp up calls for Americans to stop using ivermectin

#186

Post by dataflow »

choward wrote: post #185
dataflow wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not saying I "trust" him (or don't). I'm saying I've seen no evidence he's been lying, trying to mislead the public, or whatever other maligned accusations people have been hurling at him all over the internet. When something looks like an honest mistake, why cut into others' characters instead of just calling it out as an honest mistake? Especially with half-quoted clips like that? Say he was wrong all you want…

> When it looks like an honest mistake, why call it a lie instead of an honest mistake? I linked you to evidence that shows he lied. In the first video he said masks don't work. It clearly wasn't an "honest mistake". > I highly doubt you would've been a better NIH director Nice strawman. I never said I would be, but I know one thing for sure: I wouldn't deliberately lie to the American public about something so impor…

> I linked you to evidence that shows he lied.

No, you most definitely did not. You ignored most of the video and started quoting him mid-sentence. As I already explained to you. You've shown zero evidence that his genuine belief was anything different than he communicated in that interview. At best, all you've showed is that he gave poor advice, and even that itself is highly questionable given how you still can't be bothered to even quote him properly and depict the interview accurately. It's not exactly hard to make someone look like a monster when you cut their quotes in half and ignore all the surrounding context.

This conversation clearly isn't going anywhere so I'm not going to continue responding.

Re: Doctors and pharmacists ramp up calls for Americans to stop using ivermectin

#187

Post by ceejayoz »

ithkuil wrote: post #147
ceejayoz wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the time, the US Surgeon General tweeted: > "Seriously people - STOP BUYING MASKS! They are NOT effective in preventing general public from catching #Coronavirus, but if healthcare providers can’t get them to care for sick patients, it puts them and our communities at risk!" There was absolutely quite a bit of false messaging on the point from authority figures.

Yeah they should have said. "Stop buying masks. There is a shortage and if healthcare providers can’t get them to care for sick patients, it puts them and our communities at risk! Since we live in a very capitalistic society we cannot reserve masks for healthcare use and instead we have to rely on all of you to do the right thing. Keep in mind that masks may not offer the kind of protection you think they do, i.e. th…

“Masks are in short supply; we are asking major vendors to sell them only to local hospitals. We are working to improve supply. Here’s how to make a cloth one for now, as well as advice on staying safe.”

It’s really not that hard.

Re: Doctors and pharmacists ramp up calls for Americans to stop using ivermectin

#188

Post by OneEyedRobot »

karaterobot wrote: post #141
OneEyedRobot wrote: post #112

That's odd. A quick look at sci-hub shows a bunch of ivermectin papers that don't look half bad. I figure that if a physician wants to go off-label on a prescription they should go ahead. Plenty of warnings of course. Buying it at the feed store along with fish antibiotics is sketchy, but remember that it's your body after all. People forget that. God knows how many people are harmed by Tylenol overdoses.

The issue is that there aren't any studies showing that safe doses are effective for treating this disease in humans. The studies on monkey cell cultures are what they are, but nobody seems to be noticing that the dose you'd have to use to get those effects in living humans is unsafe. As a rule, medicine should be more likely to treat the illness than to kill you. If my doctor prescribed Ivermectin, I guess I'd take…

>The issue is that there aren't any studies showing that safe doses are effective for treating this disease in humans.

Actually I'm seeing a few, but they suffer from the typical lack of statistical rigor that I've come to expect in medical studies and fall into the 'further studies are needed' bin.

As a side note, I'm always blown away by the poor quality of many medical papers. Publish or perish? Dunno.

Re: Doctors and pharmacists ramp up calls for Americans to stop using ivermectin

#189

Post by littonlamb »

willcipriano wrote: post #72

A interesting observation I had recently was that some people who tend to have views around recreational drugs that can be described "live and let live" are up in arms about ivermectin. I know a guy who uses horse tranquilizers recreationally who posts on Facebook everyday about the "morons who are taking horse medicine". Personally I don't care if you use either, it isn't my body. We are in a age where you no longer…

On the one hand:

Some people abusing drugs:

- to successfully get high

- more or less safely at home

On the other:

Some people abusing a drug

- that doesn't have the effect they're using it for

- when there's a better alternative

- which is freely available

- AND the knock-on effects are harming other people

  - ODs using up hospital capacity

  - continued spread of coronavirus
I don't see much comparison, nor any contradiction in being okay with the former and not okay with the latter.

Re: Doctors and pharmacists ramp up calls for Americans to stop using ivermectin

#190

Post by kergonath »

AndrewBissell wrote: post #36
devwastaken wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The announcement is for people with basic reasoning skills, not for those that take drugs based on Facebook posts. Ivermectin, like many drugs, is used for various things. COVID is not one of them, and those pushing it have no expertise to understand the medical studies, nor are they interested in doing a comprehensive evaluation. Yet again, actual experts aren't on the playing field, it's talking heads and hired deg…

Ivermectin is being prescribed off-label for Covid-19 by tens of thousands of doctors nationwide. Are those "people with no expertise to understand the medical studies"?

Well, apparently, otherwise they would not be doing it.
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