ASML, a $300B Dutch firm, makes the machines that make semiconductors • Hacker News Board

Re: ASML, a $300B Dutch firm, makes the machines that make semiconductors

#181

Post by s0rce » Mon, Aug 23, 2021, 3:30 AM UTC

01100011 wrote: post #178

rivo wrote: post #139

A few highlights from a conversation with a friend who works for Zeiss and regularly deals with ASML (take this with a grain of salt, I may have misunderstood some of it and he also may not be an expert in all of these areas): - The lenses (actually mirrors for EUV) only demagnify by a factor of 4. So your wafer template is already extremely small and costs millions to produce. - 13.5nm is pretty much the smallest wa…

> you have to build a particle accelerator That's not exactly difficult. Particle accelerators are all over these days, from medical applications(radiotherapy with liniacs) to materials inspection(portable cyclotrons).

X-ray producing synchrotrons are generally pretty large and expensive. There has been thoughts of using them for lithography and microfabrication in the past (see LIGA) that haven't really panned out. There are companies working on more advanced laboratory sources, but mostly for analytical applications (EasyXAFS, Sigray). There is a company working on a lab scale synchrotron (lyncean tech).

Re: ASML, a $300B Dutch firm, makes the machines that make semiconductors

#182

Post by cromwellian » Mon, Aug 23, 2021, 3:35 AM UTC

rivo wrote: post #139

A few highlights from a conversation with a friend who works for Zeiss and regularly deals with ASML (take this with a grain of salt, I may have misunderstood some of it and he also may not be an expert in all of these areas): - The lenses (actually mirrors for EUV) only demagnify by a factor of 4. So your wafer template is already extremely small and costs millions to produce. - 13.5nm is pretty much the smallest wa…

> ASML has a monopoly on this tech

A lot of this tech is the result of more than 30 years of research, starting with national labs (DOE funded Sandia, LLNL, etc), then consortiums of Intel, AMD, etc (EUV LLC), in fact, ASML was a member of EUV LLV and specifically, because some of the techniques they're using was originally pioneered by DOE Labs and EUV LLC members, they had to get approval from DOE/EUV AFAIK.

Also, the core laser tech, tin droplets, was actually pioneered by Cymer, but they bought Cymer wholesale. So part of the issue is they vertically integrated a lot of the very difficult components of their machine by buying smaller companies.

This would be like TSMC buying ASML and preventing other fabs from getting access. It's definitely bad for the market, and EUV is so damn expensive it took 30 years of R&D and a consortium of companies to even get to this point. The competing technologies, using different Lasers, would need enormous funding to get them to work.

EUV LLC built a 100-nm EUV prototype almost 20 years ago using a different technique, but gave up on that path. There's also electron beam lithography (EBL) which is maskless AFAIK, but I don't think it ever made it to production either. I guess Intel and other players decided it was better to just own ASML stock.

So the world seems stuck with ASML, unless of course, China gets a hold of one of the machines and decides to just clone it and ignore patents.

Re: ASML, a $300B Dutch firm, makes the machines that make semiconductors

#183

Post by s0rce » Mon, Aug 23, 2021, 3:36 AM UTC

Keyframe wrote: post #76

FlorianRappl wrote: post #22

ASML is a great company. What should be stressed is that the lenses are coming from Zeiss SMT, which is a strategic partner of ASML since 1997. In fact, they are so important that ASML bought a significant part of the Carl Zeiss subsidiary some years ago. You can't get a pretty good video about the relationship and EUV at: https://www.zeiss.com/semiconductor-manufacturing-technology...

Schott (glass) / Zeiss (lens) combo is extremely important in a lot of industries. Most people probably heard about them through photography or spectacles.

I'm guessing, though not 100% certain, that EUV uses mirrors and not lenses, although still could be based on glass substrates.

Re: ASML, a $300B Dutch firm, makes the machines that make semiconductors

#184

Post by bradknowles » Mon, Aug 23, 2021, 3:37 AM UTC

BenoitP wrote: post #145

rivo wrote: post #139

A few highlights from a conversation with a friend who works for Zeiss and regularly deals with ASML (take this with a grain of salt, I may have misunderstood some of it and he also may not be an expert in all of these areas): - The lenses (actually mirrors for EUV) only demagnify by a factor of 4. So your wafer template is already extremely small and costs millions to produce. - 13.5nm is pretty much the smallest wa…

> - He said they're not very affected by the chip shortage. You bet! TSMC/Intel/Samsung must give them for free; also give them the first of each batch they make, as samples to be analyzed.

ASML makes the machines that make the chips. They can do their own runs of whatever chips they need, because they have to fully test the multi-million dollar machines before they disassemble them and ship them out.

Re: ASML, a $300B Dutch firm, makes the machines that make semiconductors

#185

Post by analyst74 » Mon, Aug 23, 2021, 3:52 AM UTC

ren_engineer wrote: post #157

analyst74 wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't consider higher wage for engineers and scientists the same as bribing. I mean, one of silicone valleys key strength is the ability for companies to poach from competitors in order to catch up, this cross pollination of ideas is both beneficial to the industry AND individuals.

bribing isn't paying higher wages, it would be paying a huge amount of money for somebody to stay at ASML as a spy and giving you crucial information for money

Isn't it better to just hire them, so they bring you all their years of technical and operational knowledge?

Of course, it requires the new external hires be given enough influence and autonomy. It remains to be seen if Chinese firms are able to integrate international talents effectively.

Re: ASML, a $300B Dutch firm, makes the machines that make semiconductors

#186

Post by rasz » Mon, Aug 23, 2021, 3:58 AM UTC

cromwellian wrote: post #182

rivo wrote: post #139

A few highlights from a conversation with a friend who works for Zeiss and regularly deals with ASML (take this with a grain of salt, I may have misunderstood some of it and he also may not be an expert in all of these areas): - The lenses (actually mirrors for EUV) only demagnify by a factor of 4. So your wafer template is already extremely small and costs millions to produce. - 13.5nm is pretty much the smallest wa…

> ASML has a monopoly on this tech A lot of this tech is the result of more than 30 years of research, starting with national labs (DOE funded Sandia, LLNL, etc), then consortiums of Intel, AMD, etc (EUV LLC), in fact, ASML was a member of EUV LLV and specifically, because some of the techniques they're using was originally pioneered by DOE Labs and EUV LLC members, they had to get approval from DOE/EUV AFAIK. Also,…

China has one of the older ASML DUV machines, they got it thru a scam :o) and proceeded to pawn it for $90mil to a local bank for a quick scam exit https://chinatalk.substack.com/p/billion-dollar-heist-how-sc... https://interconnected.blog/chinas-semiconductor-theranos-hs...

but even non scam Chinese initiatives are failing https://techtaiwan.com/20210714/tsinghua-unigroup-bankruptcy...

Re: ASML, a $300B Dutch firm, makes the machines that make semiconductors

#187

Post by matmatmatmat » Mon, Aug 23, 2021, 4:03 AM UTC

as1mov wrote: post #56

royjacobs wrote: post #23

Ah yes, ASML. I have a number of friends and ex-colleagues who work there. Unsurprisingly, due to their importance, ASML are extremely well-known inside of the Netherlands. It's one of those companies that spun out of Philips Electronics and became very successful (NXP is another good example). A lot of research and development is still going on in the area where Philips had their research labs. If you're curious to…

Kinda off-topic but what's it like working at ASML? They are hiring for a lot of software roles at the moment. I've been mulling about applying there but from the outside it looks very bureaucratic (at least that's what the Glassdoor reviews seem to indicate).

I have a group of friends who all worked there (San Diego office, formerly Cymer), half of whom have quit. They complained of massive inefficiency (very bureaucratic, lots of meetings), relatively low pay, difficulty moving around, feeling overworked but still shipping buggy software, and some difficult colleagues.

I also happen to know a project manager there who had a bit of a rocky time getting started (overworked), but I think is now happy there.

To be honest, my friends have put me off from working there, but who knows, it could just be a biased impression and maybe the company is working to turn things around.

Re: ASML, a $300B Dutch firm, makes the machines that make semiconductors

#188

Post by rasz » Mon, Aug 23, 2021, 4:03 AM UTC

ren_engineer wrote: post #47

xxpor wrote: post #24

I feel like ASML is the company that almost everyone who would care has heard of at this point. Granted, I hadn't heard of them 3 years ago, even though I work directly with HW designers. Its just funny how they're going through the hype cycle in their level of public awareness. Give it 3 years and (hopefully) the "general public" won't have to care about them again, because chip shortages are resolved :)

ASML will matter for decades unless a competitor surpasses them. US is already blocking them from exporting to China https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-wants-a-chip-machine-from... the company is probably as important as TSMC in terms of geopolitics now

unsuccessfully https://chinatalk.substack.com/p/billion-dollar-heist-how-sc... https://interconnected.blog/chinas-semiconductor-theranos-hs...

Re: ASML, a $300B Dutch firm, makes the machines that make semiconductors

#189

Post by baybal2 » Mon, Aug 23, 2021, 4:55 AM UTC

cbozeman wrote: post #140

erichocean wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> US is already blocking them from exporting to China Which works until China invades Taiwan. Then what?

Then what? That isn't hard to figure out. If China invades Taiwan before enough TSMC plants are built in America to meet American, and by extension - Western - demand for electronics, then it's war. Period, end of story. There is no fucking way in any timeline in any alternate universe that Western electronics companies can allow China to put their businesses on hold, because it isn't just a bunch of AMD and Qualcomm…

> And nuclear war isn't an option either, because all of China will end up completely uninhabitable if even a single major American city gets targeted.

No, by far, China is the only nation which may ever consider taking the first strike.

There is Mao's famous saying, but also the fact China is super crazy about nuclear war preparedness.

Every major city has regular NBC drills, stockpiles of everything, and huge shelters.

Re: ASML, a $300B Dutch firm, makes the machines that make semiconductors

#190

Post by sennight » Mon, Aug 23, 2021, 5:14 AM UTC

arminiusreturns wrote: post #148

11thEarlOfMar wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is true in general. In this case, however, there are no efforts I am aware of in the industry that can catch them. Their technological lead is so great, in so many subsystem and science areas, it's likely they will be defacto monopoly in this space for 20 years.

I don't understand this. They made it, surely someone else can too? Are we on the verge of a bunch of industries using hyperspecialization as a monopoly justifier? I mean this sounds just like what I used to hear pre-Snowden about DARPA and the NSA etc, 20 years ahead of the public.

> 20 years ahead of the public.

When the DoD was deeply involved with SV instead of just purchasing top binned COTS? At that time they basically were operating with hardware that far ahead, but that was always relative to the general consumer, it didn't stop companies from paying insane prices for marginal improvements that only HFTs and research labs would care about. Nobody would have bothered trying to bring something so expensive to the broader market - remember the multi-core games Intel played for years before AMD started knocking bread off their table?

Also, are you implying that the lack of leaked supercomputing documents is evidence of a commercial technological parity, or did I miss a big reveal (totally possible, haven't been paying attention)? Because as I recall he didn't pull a Manning style dump of operations-level intel (regardless of legality) - he instead coordinated with Greenwald to expose illegal strategic programs (and occasionally a debatable legal one that the DNI lied about in the prior news cycle - which was pretty funny). So I didn't expect any leaks about bleeding edge crypto hardware - because most domestic communication wouldn't need space age tech to break (A5/1 has always been hobbled).