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Amazon tells bosses to conceal when employees are on performance management plan

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Re: Amazon tells bosses to conceal when employees are on performance management plan

#181

Post by r0m4n0 »

I had an ex that was in all honesty was a horrible employee. I feel bad for anyone that ever worked with her. She was always qualified for the job but a nightmare doing actual work. She came to me with some project that her boss asked her to work on looking for advice. This Fortune 500 company was asking her, as a software engineer, to create an Excel spreadsheet budget for her next project. I honestly helped her to the best of my ability (it actually wasn’t half bad haha) but they ended up firing her within a few weeks. They were just looking for a final project to show in plain view that she couldn’t do what was asked of her.

Anecdotal but… I suppose they could be protecting themselves from these situations where once they have made up their mind, it’s probably in their best interest to see their everyday work ethic. I think most of us would like the chance to know whether they are doing a good job to improve, but this sounds like once they are on this list, their days are numbered

Re: Amazon tells bosses to conceal when employees are on performance management plan

#182

Post by decafninja »

thor24 wrote: post #173
decafninja wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I keep hearing all the letters of FAANG have more or less similarly competitive total compensation if you factor in RSUs, appreciation, etc. But then I hear things about "cliffs" and how extremely high TCs are possible only because of stock appreciation. In that sense, is Netflix basically untouchable in terms of compensation, if F/A/A/G (and other companies like Uber, Lyft, Airbnb, Microsoft, etc.) can only be compe…

To be absolutely clear, comp is not based on stock appreciation. You get your grant (aka no. of stocks/RSUs) that vest at some cadence. By the time you vest a tranche and share price has increased is an added bonus (though generally people in tech think 4x in 4 years is their birth right.) As for Netflix, they do give you option of choosing to split your salary every year i.e all cash, all options, some cash and some…

Is the added bonus of increased share price required for the comp to be similar to an all-cash Netflix comp though?

Or is it still competitive without taking such appreciation into account?

Re: Amazon tells bosses to conceal when employees are on performance management plan

#183

Post by CamTin »

temp8964 wrote: post #143
underwater wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not like management will just let the employer keep underperforming. They'll secretly PIP them, let them continue on their course, and then fire them with no warning.

No. Sometimes the employee didn't underperform at all. Why do you assume the manager always know the truth?

Management effectively does know the truth, for the trivial reason that they get to decide what the truth is. They are the ones who get to decide what counts as performing and underperforming. It's not as though there is some objective way to determine who is and isn't a desirable employee.

Re: Amazon tells bosses to conceal when employees are on performance management plan

#184

Post by MattGaiser »

grayfaced wrote: post #172
mataug wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A toxic culture of fear is the intended effect here. People at amazon love to discuss the flywheel effect[1]. The flywheel here is the culture of fear that keeps employees on their toes. Bezos believes that employees are inherently lazy[2], and it seems like fear is tool the S-team have chosen to solve the problem of lazy employees. This has a lot of unintended consequences[3], but the executives with the power to ch…

Imagine suffering from imposter syndrome in an office with this fear culture. People will work themselves to the bone trying to fix personal perceived inadequecies. Then they burnout and quit. I guess if workers are considered expendable than that's a positive. Corporations need to be more accountable to their workers welfare and not solely stockholder's welfare.

Given their seeming labour challenges, maybe it is a self regulating problem?

Re: Amazon tells bosses to conceal when employees are on performance management plan

#185

Post by MattGaiser »

oh_sigh wrote: post #176
MattGaiser wrote: post #117

Are performance improvement plans actually genuine in most cases? If I were put on one or got a negative performance review, I would assume that I have essentially been fired but my boss is waiting on key paperwork.

My experience at Amazon was as soon as someone knew they were on a PIP, they went out and got another job. It's much easier to get a job when you are currently employed, and your PIP doesn't show up in any background checks so it was basically a "please leave or we will make you leave"

Yeah, this would be how I would react to any formal notification about issues with my performance. I would take it as a kind kick out the door.

Re: Amazon tells bosses to conceal when employees are on performance management plan

#186

Post by ngcazz »

sharken wrote: post #98
commandlinefan wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I am totally unappreciated in my time. You can run this whole park from this room with minimal staff for up to 3 days. You think that kind of automation is easy? Or cheap? You know anybody who can network 8 connection machines and debug 2 million lines of code for what I bid for this job? Because if he can I'd like to see him try."

Was reading this at face value heh. Anyway, nice try Dennis, now get back to work!

I thought this was a Gilfoyle quote for a second!

Re: Amazon tells bosses to conceal when employees are on performance management plan

#187

Post by dkhenry »

I have a very simple rule that I adopted when I first became a manager, and it has served me well. I won't ever fire someone for performance unless I have explicitly said to them. `If you don't do the following things in the given time frame you will be fired` I require myself to explicitly state they will loose their job, and I require to have an explicit list of exactly what needs to be done and a fixed time frame for it to be done. I feel if I as a manager can't do that, then the real issue is a failure in management not a failure in the employee.

While I have still had to fire plenty of people for performance even with this rule. I can also say that I have had multiple people actually improve their performance and get off the PiP which as I understand from talking to other managers is not a common occurrence.

Re: Amazon tells bosses to conceal when employees are on performance management plan

#188

Post by ggm »

Can anyone explain how this is not a breach of employment law? It reads like an on-the-face-of-it constructive dismissal case: if your manager has future intent to sack you, has no intention of helping you improve, is kpi rewarded for sacking you for reasons which don't actually relate to your performance and doesn't inform you of your status, surely it's premeditated?

I don't understand how H/R and legal can sustain this. (I do understand that they have: I'm not that stupid. So there must be some underlying reason this is legal, but I suspect it's not well "tested" in all jurisdictions Amazon employs in)

Re: Amazon tells bosses to conceal when employees are on performance management plan

#189

Post by BeetleB »

ozzythecat wrote: post #25

> “Should I tell an employee that I entered them into Focus?” the question reads. The response: “Do not discuss Focus with employees. Instead, tell the employee that their performance is not meeting expectations, the specific areas where they need to improve, and offer feedback and support to help them improve.” The headline is editorialized. IMO whether you’re told you’re in Focus or not is irrelevant. If your manag…

I've worked for managers who really don't like giving negative feedback, and would only give very obscure hints. The upshot would be that you'd get put on Focus and have no idea you have performance issues.

Re: Amazon tells bosses to conceal when employees are on performance management plan

#190

Post by decafninja »

almost_usual wrote: post #157
andreilys wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The funny thing about cash is that you can use it to buy equity. Who knows, maybe you’ll even learn to diversify by investing in areas uncorrelated to your line of work

It’s equivalent if the cash bonus is paid up front or at the beginning of 2020 when the employee starts. So 200k base and 300k signing bonus. I _thought_ Netflix comps with a cash salary and if that’s the case it’s worth less than equity. The salary depreciated over the course of 2020 while an equity grant would have appreciated from the start.

We can’t base everything on 2020 though. My stock portfolio absolutely skyrocketed in 2020 beyond imagination. But it has remained mostly stagnant in 2021.

Would cash+equity comp still be preferable to an all cash Netflix comp in that case?

I guess the gist of my question is:

Non-Netflix FAANG level company salary + stock without appreciation >= Netflix all-cash salary?

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