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How to Work Hard

paulgraham.com

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Re: How to Work Hard

#181

Post by lupire »

bko wrote: post #132
PragmaticPulp wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you tell people that if they work 12+ hours a day in their 20s that they would be millionaires or billionaires Billionaire isn’t a realistic goal, but millionaire is a common outcome for software developers who work hard through their 20s and 30s now. It doesn’t even require a FAANG job or living in a super expensive city any more, just wise job selection, a reasonable amount of financial savvy and budget adhere…

> Working hard in the mailroom or stocking shelves at a grocery store isn’t going to translate into a successful software career Right, but it might lead to satisfaction regardless. Even the most menial positions are often rewarded. I have worked a few menial jobs, and effort is even more important. When I worked hard and went the extra mile when required, I got rewarded with better shifts, more flexibility and more…

Putting that extra effort into forming a union might pay off a lot more than trying to impress MegaMart AI Scheduler v3.6

Putting the extra effort into a menial job isn't "a grueling workout", it's mortgaging your body and health for a price you'll regret in 20 years.

Re: How to Work Hard

#182

Post by xyzelement »

reader_mode wrote: post #117
giantg2 wrote: post #44

Hard work can be good, but only if you own a substantial capital interest in the company/result. But if you can hire people to do it for you, then you can reap the benefits and live a life worth living. If you are just part of the labor and not the capital, then there really isn't an incentive to work harder than necessary to keep you job or earn a measly raise. If you tell people that if they work 12+ hours a day in…

>If you tell people that if they work 12+ hours a day in their 20s that they would be millionaires In software development this is a realistic goal if you play your cards right. Plenty of other careers too. I think there's also statistical data to support this as well (hours worked early on increasing your income and net worth down the line). Working hard early on in your career does pay off.

You got downvoted not because you are wrong but because you are right.

Some people would rather hear they have no power and no chance because it takes away the bad feeling for their own agency in their situation. Others are empowered by their agency and act on it.

Thank you for spreading the 2nd point of view.

Re: How to Work Hard

#183

Post by barrkel »

EricE wrote: post #141
papito wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do they enjoy it or do they THINK they enjoy it? Many people realize that they wasted their lives on being in the office after they retire. This TED talk can be a revelation: https://www.ted.com/talks/bj_miller_what_really_matters_at_t... And the Bill Gates thing? PLEASE. Yeah, I agree with the previous comment. A horrible example. Bill Gates was one of the most lucky sons of bitches in the history of the planet. Bor…

Isn't it funny that all these people with incredible luck - every single one - also work their asses off?

It's necessary but not sufficient. What if you work hard all through your 20s, not a day off, and it doesn't work out (which it doesn't, in the billionaire sense, for most people)? How do you get back the first flush of youth?

This essay from Paul reminded me once again how relatively blinkered he is. He has his mental model of a good life - for obvious reasons, it's one which is somewhat similar to his own - and he doesn't question his assumptions. What is his utility function? Is it a universal utility function, or is it actually just his preferred, locally, personally optimal way of increasing its value?

Dismissing whole departments at college is part of that. You might not see value in the philosophy - PG is on record as dismissing it - but philosophy has changed the world more than almost anything else. It's at the foundation of science, law, government and politics, and most of the wars of the 20th century were fought, ultimately, over philosophy. PG knows this, maybe he views it differently - he studied it in college after all - but in his shoes, I wouldn't be so dismissive.

Re: How to Work Hard

#184

Post by PragmaticPulp »

giantg2 wrote: post #164
SonicScrub wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Millionaire Next Door concepts are still as relevant as ever, albeit the specifics are a bit dated. Millionaire status is reasonably achievable for someone whose income and cost of basics allow for modest discretionary income. This is certainly the case for the majority of software developers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Millionaire_Next_Door

Over what time horizon? How do we factor in retirement needs and inflation? The point is that the vast majority of people are not going to be financially independent by 30, or even 40.

> How do we factor in retirement needs and inflation?

Use inflation-adjusted calculators. Any good savings and retirement calculator will have an option for this.

Inflation is commonly misunderstood in long-term financial planning. It’s important to consider inflation for expenses and future savings amount, but many people don’t realize that inflation will also life their investments to some degree.

For example, if a common house costs $5,000,000 on your future retirement date and you’ve been saving your money in cash this whole time, you’re in a bad spot. However, if you buy a house in your 30s that meets your needs, the value of your house will also rise with inflation. Inflation is also loosely coupled to rising stock prices (except for hyper-inflation or other economic catastrophes) and asset prices. Just don’t keep your money all in cash, because that’s the only guaranteed way to lose out to inflation.

Re: How to Work Hard

#185

Post by lupire »

papito wrote: post #107
temp8964 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you said is simply not true. There are countless people work on different positions in different fields are enjoying hard work as part of their life. If you read the essay through, he never said "hard work == long hours of work". He explicitly wrote "Trying hard doesn't mean constantly pushing yourself to work, though."

Do they enjoy it or do they THINK they enjoy it? Many people realize that they wasted their lives on being in the office after they retire. This TED talk can be a revelation: https://www.ted.com/talks/bj_miller_what_really_matters_at_t... And the Bill Gates thing? PLEASE. Yeah, I agree with the previous comment. A horrible example. Bill Gates was one of the most lucky sons of bitches in the history of the planet. Bor…

Where is the evidence that people who regret working hard would have not regretted working less hard?

Some people are biochemically unhappy.

Re: How to Work Hard

#186

Post by sidlls »

giantg2 wrote: post #164
SonicScrub wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Millionaire Next Door concepts are still as relevant as ever, albeit the specifics are a bit dated. Millionaire status is reasonably achievable for someone whose income and cost of basics allow for modest discretionary income. This is certainly the case for the majority of software developers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Millionaire_Next_Door

Over what time horizon? How do we factor in retirement needs and inflation? The point is that the vast majority of people are not going to be financially independent by 30, or even 40.

It’s so hard to get $1MM that only about 19% of people age 65 or over ever reach it. Is software overrepresented in that group? Probably. But not to the extent that it’s reasonable to make the claim that it’s common for software developers to reach it in their 20s and 30s.

Re: How to Work Hard

#187

Post by lupire »

EricE wrote: post #141
papito wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do they enjoy it or do they THINK they enjoy it? Many people realize that they wasted their lives on being in the office after they retire. This TED talk can be a revelation: https://www.ted.com/talks/bj_miller_what_really_matters_at_t... And the Bill Gates thing? PLEASE. Yeah, I agree with the previous comment. A horrible example. Bill Gates was one of the most lucky sons of bitches in the history of the planet. Bor…

Isn't it funny that all these people with incredible luck - every single one - also work their asses off?

Warren Buffet's son didn't.

Re: How to Work Hard

#188

Post by tgtweak »

This rhetoric furthered by Elon, Jack Ma and several others where working 7 days a week for 18 hours is "ideal" and that rest and relaxation are had at the expense of productivity/success is a real dangerous position.

You know what happens to the majority of people when they get to a state of anxiety when relaxing and not working? Stress and burnout.

Let's acknowledge that it may have been the path to success for SOME of the 0.1% who can work 18 hours a day nonstop for a decade with extreme natural ability and a fair amount of chance (confirmation bias aside) and not the end-all of being successful that everyone should strive for. Yes, there is certainly a correlation between working hard and being successful - regardless of your natural ability. Don't do it at the expense of living.

Take it to the extreme: what happens when EVERYONE works that hard? You're back at your normal level of relative productivity.

Re: How to Work Hard

#189

Post by bobobob420 »

This article is hot garbage and so is much else Paul writes. The comments were 10x better than the crap written in this article like seriously? You should write a motivation book too.

Re: How to Work Hard

#190

Post by gonehome »

bidirectional wrote: post #154
jb775 wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> are enjoying hard work as part of their life Also known as "suckers", or "employees".

Why? Unless you are working so hard that it drains you outside of office hours, what's wrong with it? I just feel plain worse when I slack off at work, and feel accomplished and valued when I work hard. I work the same number of hours either way.

Yeah, people like having purpose and feel good contributing to a shared goal.

If the work is stimulating, and the company is doing something you find valuable (or it’s your own company) then that’s very fulfilling.

There’s some cultural trope that everything is zero sum and that people can’t possibly enjoy their work or get value from it. I think this is just empirically wrong. People don’t just “think” they enjoy hard work, many actually do - and feel worse when they’re having trouble doing it.

I like the essay a lot, but I’m not sure it meets its title How to work hard. It lays out that to do great work you must and that it often feels good to do so. John Carmack proofread the essay and is probably one of the hardest working programmers alive (in addition to massive natural ability).

I think a more common problem is people that want to work hard, feel good when they do so, but have a hard time getting themselves to do so. Strategies around getting better at this (the “how”) are difficult. He touches on it a bit with how goals must be set once out of school and no one will set them for you. Interest helps, but is often not enough.

There’s of course also the group of people that don’t value hard work and don’t feel bad from not working hard/meeting potential, but I actually suspect this group is smaller than most think (and less interesting to discuss given the topic).

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