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Troubled teens left traumatised by tough love camps

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Re: Troubled teens left traumatised by tough love camps

#181

Post by skrebbel »

detaro wrote: post #162
erklik wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Similar situation in Australia. They're called the Stolen Generations, children who were removed from their Australian Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander descent parents by state agencies and church missions. This happened until the 70s. It's nuts how recent it is.

In Canada the Indian Act allowed the state to force kids into such places until 2014 .

Do you know how often it was done in practice, lately? Ie did the law getting fixed stop the abuse, or did the abuse stop way earlier?

Re: Troubled teens left traumatised by tough love camps

#182

Post by skrebbel »

devenblake wrote: post #163
bregma wrote: post #144

In Canada our government ran a program like this for all indigenous people for over a century, the goal of which was to "take the Indian out of the child". The children would be taken, often forcefully, and maybe allowed home for a visit one a year maybe not. They were beaten if they spoke their own language or indulged in their own culture. Often abused, sometimes killed. The goal was total cultural annihilation, an…

Happened in the United States as well (notoriously: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlisle_Indian_Industrial_Sch... ). I was genuinely surprised to learn this in high school (for me, 2017-2021 or so) - not because it's not a notable event in US history but because I was surprised my history teacher was allowed to teach it.

You're surprised the US has free speech?

Re: Troubled teens left traumatised by tough love camps

#183

Post by codekilla »

I was at Casa by The Sea in Ensenada Mexico from 2000-2002 [0]. These were run by WWASP (I wish I was making that up). What a trip to learn today that Paris Hilton was at one of the US based programs. As bad as these were in the US, the foreign ones could be very brutal (Casa was raided and shut down by the Federales).

Happy to answer any questions.

[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casa_by_the_Sea

Re: Troubled teens left traumatised by tough love camps

#184

Post by rogerkirkness »

brian_cunnie wrote: post #169
bjornsing wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I look back on it as one of the most valuable experiences in my life, not because there was any validity to the program but because it just confronted me with a lot of intense challenges at a young age that really developed my critical thinking and mindset at a young age. What doesn’t kill you makes you stronger. Problem is, it does “kill”* some people. (*) Sometimes literally, but probably more often figuratively.

I asked a psychologist (Dr. Judith Bernstein) if it's true that what doesn't kill you makes you stronger, and she answered unequivocally, "Trauma never makes you stronger." In a similar vein, with respect to "there are no atheists in foxholes", A three-tour-of-duty-in-Vietnam captain in the US Army (Harry McMenamin) said, "I was an atheist when I was in Vietnam, and I was in a lot of foxholes. There are atheists in f…

Post traumatic growth begs to differ.

Re: Troubled teens left traumatised by tough love camps

#185

Post by brian_cunnie »

woofie11 wrote: post #174
brian_cunnie wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I asked a psychologist (Dr. Judith Bernstein) if it's true that what doesn't kill you makes you stronger, and she answered unequivocally, "Trauma never makes you stronger." In a similar vein, with respect to "there are no atheists in foxholes", A three-tour-of-duty-in-Vietnam captain in the US Army (Harry McMenamin) said, "I was an atheist when I was in Vietnam, and I was in a lot of foxholes. There are atheists in f…

Psychologists mostly mirror the cultural values they're raised in. A lot of historical figures contradict the prevailing narrative.

> A lot of historical figures contradict the prevailing narrative [that trauma never makes you stronger].

I'd argue that the key word here is "trauma"; I think _adversity_ can make you stronger (more disciplined, and more focused), but I think that Dr. Bernstein is using the word "trauma" in its technical, medical, sense, i.e. "Psychological trauma is caused by an adverse experience, or series of experiences, that result in an injury that changes the way the brain functions, impairing neurophysiological, psychological, and cognitive functioning." [0]

[0] https://www.med.upenn.edu/traumaresponse/trauma.html

Re: Troubled teens left traumatised by tough love camps

#186

Post by sundaeofshock »

skrebbel wrote: post #182
devenblake wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Happened in the United States as well (notoriously: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlisle_Indian_Industrial_Sch... ). I was genuinely surprised to learn this in high school (for me, 2017-2021 or so) - not because it's not a notable event in US history but because I was surprised my history teacher was allowed to teach it.

You're surprised the US has free speech?

We (the US) are currently in a debate about banning the teaching of “critical race theory” in schools.

Many history text textbooks downplay slavery to such an extent that most high-school graduates think the Civil War was about “states rights” when it was really about several states committing treason in defense of slavery.

The genocide and ongoing mistreatment of Native Peoples is barely covered.

In some states, teachers are required to sign documents saying they don’t support the BDS (boycott, divest, sanction) movement against Israel.

But please, do go on about free speech.

Re: Troubled teens left traumatised by tough love camps

#187

Post by GhostVII »

sundaeofshock wrote: post #186
skrebbel wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're surprised the US has free speech?

We (the US) are currently in a debate about banning the teaching of “critical race theory” in schools. Many history text textbooks downplay slavery to such an extent that most high-school graduates think the Civil War was about “states rights” when it was really about several states committing treason in defense of slavery. The genocide and ongoing mistreatment of Native Peoples is barely covered. In some states, tea…

Telling teachers what they are allowed to teach doesn't really go against free speech. I can talk about how I think the earth is flat for as long as I want, but if I start teaching that to students I'm going to get fired (hopefully).

Re: Troubled teens left traumatised by tough love camps

#188

Post by paulryanrogers »

TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #143
watwut wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was rewatching shows from 1990 and so on lately. One of surprising observations was that "tough love" came up multiple times, always as positive. There is something appealing about tough no nonsense solutions to people with authoritarian tendencies. And there is ignorance about how bad it can get in isolated communities where weaker individuals have no where to escape.

When growing up as a teenage male, there was a turning point in my mental development. I was sitting in class cracking jokes when this jerk kid stood up and punched me in the back of the head. I didn't know how to respond, so I just sat there. I was an out of shape kid who would have definitely lost. That event changed me. In the weeks and months ahead, anger and shame in my response led to a focused and intentional…

As a teen male of short stature there was no hope of exercise rescuing me from abusive peers. There were only appeals to authority, avoidance, attempts at deft commentary, or submission and befriending the problem.

Any gender preference school systems may or may not have aren't really a factor when the bully has 180 lbs to ones 100 lbs.

Re: Troubled teens left traumatised by tough love camps

#189

Post by ad404b8a372f2b9 »

anm89 wrote: post #69
jkrubin wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you mind sharing what school you went to?

Hidden Lake Academy

Ah they're associated with CEDU, that explains a lot. I heard lots of messed up stuff from people who went to those schools.

There's an interesting interview on youtube of the comedian Adam Eget about his experience in a similar school.

Re: Troubled teens left traumatised by tough love camps

#190

Post by orwin »

candiodari wrote: post #128
andrei_says_ wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most child soldiers’ mental health is ruined for life. A model of obedience and desensitization achieved through abuse followed by committing unspeakable atrocities is not a great formula for making good citizens. What kind of twisted mental gymnastics convinces the creators of these programs that their programs are anything but harmful?

Psychology. (Ortho)pedagogues. Even some psychiatrists. It's incentives versus how human minds work. https://www.kansascity.com/news/special-reports/article23820... You see, if you look things up you will find that psychology is good at exactly what you'd expect it to be good at if you look at their methods: describing behavior "in the large". Think "Of 100 drug addicts, 10 will commit crimes due to drugs", those typ…

> Especially with kids, the problem is the environment. Generally not the home environment, but the school.

Yeah, no. I'm not living in the US so maybe you really have a weird bully culture like it was showed in TV shows ten years ago, but no, generally its the home environment. Some children DO have issues with schools and schoolwork, but the broken children i took care of when i was a youth camp counselor were broken at home. Wether it was rape, daily violence (acid on the face was the worse, luckily one eye was saved) or sometime just psychological torture (fun time when a father prostitute his wife and his child until she loose it and put him in a hospital). Oh, and the trucker stepfather taking his 11 year old stepdaughter in his truck for short haul because he needs company, and the mother keeping her daughter from speaking about it?

I'm sure in some cases, the psychologists are overzealous. But i took care of placed children every summer for 6 years, and yes, mistake were probably made for some, but for the vast majority? I'm sure even hearing about half their life would make you ask why they were not taken away sooner. The eleven yo girl i talked about, do you know how it was detected? She started blowing guys in the school toilet. Probably a "shool issue", yes, obviously. Without the school, i wonder how this would have been detected.

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