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World Bank rejects El Salvador request for Bitcoin help

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Re: World Bank rejects El Salvador request for Bitcoin help

#181
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is not to determine the actual reason(s) - us plebs will likely never know. The point is to examine the possibility that sometimes alternative explanations to the official narrative could be plausible. Which loops back to how this all started and my original comment, that there's a narrative of electrical power usage and transparency issues - which are real. But there's other plausible explanations - politi…

It's perfectly reasonable to bring up the fact that Gaddaffi, Saddam and all sorts of other characters suggest moving on form the petro dollar. It's not covered by mainstream news, because it's not really a news item. It's also reasonable to suggest that this will catch the ire of the US and their diplomatic corps, but it's really not an important thing. It's 'conspiratorial' to suggest that this was in any way a pri…

What if the argument was simply that NATO powers went to war over false pretenses in Libya just like they did in Iraq (Where WMD?) and so many countries before.

I am Canadian and I remember when we would send peacekeepers to stabilize a country under the name of the UN. In this case the UN authorized a nofly zone. Western powers took that as their opportunity to bomb Libya into the stone age and before the NATO-backed rebels were even in power they immediately established a central bank linked to the bank of international settlements [1].

Instead of installing peacekeepers to stabilize the region, once the “dictator” was disemboweled (instead of facing a fair trial) NATO powers left the country to it’s own devices. Shortly after the country devolved to the point where open air slave markets are a thing in the 21st century. Thanks NATO! [2] I would argue if a group of nations violently overthrow a government, then they are responsible for the consequences.

As such the US, Canada, France, UK, and Italy all have the blood of slaves on their hands in Libya. Curious how the mainstream news so rarely connects the dots on that one.

[1] https://www.cnbc.com/2011/03/28/libyan-rebels-form-their-own...

[2] https://time.com/longform/african-slave-trade/

Re: World Bank rejects El Salvador request for Bitcoin help

#182
I'm still unclear on what "legal tender" means in this context.

TFA says "The new law means every business must accept Bitcoin as legal tender". It says the USD is also legal tender. Is there an official exchange rate? Or an official bank that buys and sells BTC? Do they send out tax bills with both values?

Re: World Bank rejects El Salvador request for Bitcoin help

#183

I feel like a lot of people posting in this thread would benefit from reading Dang's post [0] from a few days ago about how shallow cryptocurrency discussions tend to be on HN and how we should all aim for a better level of discourse. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27497207

Dang has had to post that admonition so many times the past few weeks, he really out to just auto-pin it at the top of the main page. Make it “Readme First” FAQ thread or something.

Since HN runs on its own software, it could literally enforce a "read me first" before posting requirement. For certain keywords in the title that might be an interesting way to influence discussion style (and keep it good over time).

Re: World Bank rejects El Salvador request for Bitcoin help

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe it's not as simple as you think? These countries generally chose to use USD, do you really believe that they all just made a stupid decision with no upsides?

You are right. It isn't easy. But no one ever said running a country would be easy. If you are choosing to use another country's currency for your economy, you carry all the risks associated to that currency

In the case of El Salvador, they adopted the US dollar when their native currency collapsed after a bloody 12 year long civil war. Notably the civil war was covertly funded by the United States in order to support regimes aligned with US interests. At the height of the war, the US was funneling $1-2 million USD per day (1980 dollars) to fund an army of child soldiers. [1]

The US is a proximate root cause for the loss of ES’s currency. I could see why they would want an alternative to the USD as legal tender.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvadoran_Civil_War

Re: World Bank rejects El Salvador request for Bitcoin help

#185
post #121

I feel like a lot of people posting in this thread would benefit from reading Dang's post [0] from a few days ago about how shallow cryptocurrency discussions tend to be on HN and how we should all aim for a better level of discourse. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27497207

Is there a term for this kind of "shallow" discussions/responses? E.g. if headline is about X but in the vicinity of Y the thread gets filled with generic comments about Y that have nothing to do with X. It's obviously not exclusive to HN. I keep seeing it on reddit all the time and it's really tiring.

Bike-shedding isn't binary, it's a continuum. Shallow discussions are a result of audience size and loss of focus.

Re: World Bank rejects El Salvador request for Bitcoin help

#186
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One random (small) country adopting bitcoin doesn't do that. Ongoing geopolitical events on the other hand (e.g. rise of china, changing energy geopolitics) probably do a lot more to reduce usa's influence

I wouldn't discount it so fast. One country attempting this doesn't mean much but one success story? If they can make it work other countries will follow. Then game theory takes over

Yeah, but most other countries already have their own fiat currency. In the unlikely event this actually succedes,i still don't see why it would threaten US as global reserve currency or otherwise make a difference.

Re: World Bank rejects El Salvador request for Bitcoin help

#187
post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's very simple: you have a banking app that shows you an amount in bitcoin. If you want to send someone else money, you get their own bank account number, and ask your bank to wire that person 1 bitcoin. Your bank talks to their bank and tells them that they are now owed 1 bitcoin. At no point does this bitcoin have to live in the BTC wallet of you, your bank, your friend's bank, or your friend. In fact, this BTC c…

El Salvador is using Lightning Network on top of Bitcoin for virtually free, instant payments without fractional reserves. Instead of using debt or fractional reserves, Lightning allows 100% reserve asset-backed exchanges. > the dollar was once based on gold. We've moved on from that after realizing that doesn't work. Citation needed. My understanding is that governments moved off the gold standard because they could…

The world moved on from the gold standard briefly at the start of WWI, but then returned. Then, during the Great Depression, the need to better control their currency and do large financial transactions for which they simply didn't have enough gold spurred most countries to move away definitively from it. This spurred recovery from the Great Depression and allowed huge investments in needed work.

All of a sudden, it became clear that well functioning economies could reliably promise money that would become available tomorrow, and use it to start getting there today. This is a major boon to any country, and having to save up resources until you can start huge infrastructure projects would be a return to terrible times.

Later edit: As for the claim that El Salvador would use the Lightning Network, I highly doubt that the citizens of El Salvador will each have a bitcoin wallet and lightning channel connected to it. Much more likely, some citizens will have some account with a bank (exchange) that will facilitate payments through the LN or whatever other mechanism they chose to use internally, that no one will really care about.

Of course, with bitcoin as volatile as it is, no one in their right mind would pick up a credit in BTC, so the greatest need for fractional reserve banking will be far away. Even so, if people start buying heavily into bitcoin, I wouldn't be surprised to see banks/exchanges start to offer BTC that they don't yet own.

Re: World Bank rejects El Salvador request for Bitcoin help

#188
post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's perfectly reasonable to bring up the fact that Gaddaffi, Saddam and all sorts of other characters suggest moving on form the petro dollar. It's not covered by mainstream news, because it's not really a news item. It's also reasonable to suggest that this will catch the ire of the US and their diplomatic corps, but it's really not an important thing. It's 'conspiratorial' to suggest that this was in any way a pri…

What if the argument was simply that NATO powers went to war over false pretenses in Libya just like they did in Iraq (Where WMD?) and so many countries before. I am Canadian and I remember when we would send peacekeepers to stabilize a country under the name of the UN. In this case the UN authorized a nofly zone. Western powers took that as their opportunity to bomb Libya into the stone age and before the NATO-backe…

Because that's a conspiracy theory.

You've offered no evidence of 'false pretenses' and not illustrated any rational benefit for Western powers. Just the opposite - SNC Lavalin (Montreal) and others lost lucrative contracts.

And this "As such the US, Canada, France, UK, and Italy all have the blood of slaves on their hands in Libya" - is completely ridiculous. It's reddit-rhetoric, essentially to blame one 3rd party for incidental actions in some other area, at the same time not holding primary antagonists accountable for their actions. Like blaming the US for bombing Japan ... after Japan spent 35 years invading, mass murdering, mass raping, looting, firebombing, all sorts of countries, 100's of millions of people displaced or killed in SE Asia ... and then attacked the US.

Gaddifi, a known antagonist who blew up a civilian airliner, publicly stated he was going to commit mass murder in E. Libya. That's a legitimate pretense.

Did the Western powers stretch their mandate by continuing to support forces in E. Libya after NATO destroyed advancing columns? Yes, but that's completely within the boundaries or rational action.

Libyans did most of their own fighting, NATO provided air cover and Intel, and other ME forces (i.e. Qatar etc.) chose to work on the ground. Their choice.

That some rebels, who were temporarily victorious were able to set up bank accounts for clearing payments is not suspicious. That would be the #1 thing they, and we, would want them to do. To the extent that they seem like 'the best choice out of bad options, good enough to lead the country', then it's reasonable that other countries recognize the new leadership. It's each countries choice to do that.

"Instead of installing peacekeepers" ... this is not what peacekeepers do.

I'm also Canadian, and was in the Armed Forces, and am deeply acquainted with this type of mission.

The notion of 'peacekeeping' is misunderstood by the general public to the point of dangerous naivete.

'Blue Helmet' style peacekeepers can generally only work in situation where most parties have agreed to end hostilities, and usually where the forces aren't very powerful or advanced. They are observers, and generally unable to project force in a manner that would keep the situation under wraps. Literally they observe, make notes and generally don't have the established rules of engagement (or force) to be able to do anything material.

Only 'vastly more powerful application of force' can forcibly 'keep the peace' between antagonizing powers. The US occupation of Iraq, for example, would be truly what we think of as a 'peace keeping operation'. The chaos and tumult and even low-grade violence that was common there is normal and expected. That's what 'actual peacekeeping' looks like.

Because of the reluctance of Western powers to put any physical presence (i.e. 'boots on the ground') they opted to support a group that could somehow, possibly form enough of a coalition to keep the situation intact.

... but because of how Gaddafi adeptly managed to keep the tribes fragmented, at each other's throats, disunited and feckless ... there was nothing reproaching a legitimate political opposition or even coalition that could provide leadership.

And so you have what you have today, which is probably worse than what you have in Iraq.

Paradoxically - Libya would have been much easier to occupy than Iraq. They don't share a border with powerful antagonists (Syria, Iran), they don't have individually powerful groups, they don't have deep infiltration of more radical elements (Al Queda, ISIS etc. - although that could happen) and there's no way for them to be supplied. Algeria, Tunisia and Egypt are not going to allow shenanigans across their borders. The desert route is too long and the areas to the south are hostile.

A NATO-led coalition occupation might have been 'the most ideal of a list of bad options', but it would have to have been on a large scale, there would have been low-grade violence on the news, and garrisons could be expected to be there for decades. Only the US has the ability to really do that, but neither they nor most other advanced nations have the appetite for it.

Re: World Bank rejects El Salvador request for Bitcoin help

#189
post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if the argument was simply that NATO powers went to war over false pretenses in Libya just like they did in Iraq (Where WMD?) and so many countries before. I am Canadian and I remember when we would send peacekeepers to stabilize a country under the name of the UN. In this case the UN authorized a nofly zone. Western powers took that as their opportunity to bomb Libya into the stone age and before the NATO-backe…

Because that's a conspiracy theory. You've offered no evidence of 'false pretenses' and not illustrated any rational benefit for Western powers. Just the opposite - SNC Lavalin (Montreal) and others lost lucrative contracts. And this "As such the US, Canada, France, UK, and Italy all have the blood of slaves on their hands in Libya" - is completely ridiculous. It's reddit-rhetoric, essentially to blame one 3rd party…

>Gaddifi, a known antagonist who blew up a civilian airliner

I would like to point out that you are now the one stating "conspiracy theories" without evidence. A government employee of Ghaddafi's blew up an airliner. I'm not aware of any evidence, one way or the other, that he was personally involved with the planning or execution of it.

I wouldn't doubt it. But you're demanding one set of standards of information while not adhering to it yourself.

Re: World Bank rejects El Salvador request for Bitcoin help

#190

A lot of these Bitcoin threads get old. The detractors, the pumpers, the bag hodlers ... it's all so tiresome. Here's something I want answered (all three parties are invited to respond): Is there a dependency on mature internet infrastructure that exists for a country to adopt BTC as its currency? Seems like there is to me, but maybe I'm not fully appreciating how this works or am overestimating the connectivity req…

I agree strongly with the tiresome comment, and I am a bag holder and have been interested in monetary policy and economics my entire life - but not enough to read the same 10 comments over and over every day. In answer to your question, technically no, but realistically yes. Technically, BTC “transactions” can happen "on paper", the keys can be physically handed off to each other, etc (there are plenty of possible a…

Great comment, thanks. Yeah, I'm kind of beyond talking about the philosphy of Bitcoin or crypto or monetary policy on this website. Too much FUD and flamebait and all that. Maybe it'll die down in the future. Still, I find the technical questions of "suppose we wanted to 'do BTC' how would we do it?" interesting.
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