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Europe's Software Problem

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Re: Europe's Software Problem

#181

Post by pelorat »

pilsetnieks wrote: post #25

I take offense at such massive overgeneralizations as "Europe lacks imagination." What it lacks is freely flowing funding such that risky enterprises can be funded even if 1 out of ten or 1 out of hundred actually are successful. This kills business models which cannot show any profit whatsoever, and a large portion of the remainder are killed by data regulations forbidding "alternate paths of monetization" (to put i…

In some countries, if your startup fails you're legally obliged to pay back all money that was invested in it, and you won't be able to start another until you've done so.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#182

Post by sime2009 »

pjc50 wrote: post #138
eldaisfish wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GP's phrasing is wrong but there is a point there - it is much easier to achieve success and then regulate and distribute its benefits than to go the other way round. I am not a fan of unbridled capitalism a la the USA and fully agree that more countries should strive to reach European levels of worker and civil rights... however, there is validity to the statement that Europe is currently coasting along on the spoil…

> Europe is currently coasting along on the spoils of centuries of loot and plunder. A lavish, comfortable lifestyle was handed to the citizens of western europe Well, apart from the whole WW2 business. This is the trouble with generalisations across the continent, the closer you look the less well they fit. And if you look across a continent and back in time, the situation varies even further. Germany used to be "th…

> Well, apart from the whole WW2 business.

Let's be clear. By the time the last bullet was fired in WW2, Europe was basically destroyed, rumble, from the North Sea cross to Moscow. Brittan, although not occupied, was also hopelessly broke after the war. This weakness in Europe was one of the prime reasons why the colonies could break away from their European overlords. Europe was in no condition to do much about it either. They had more important things to worry about like food, and hoping that the Americans would come through with their Marshall Plan.

That's just counting the western half of Europe which wasn't under new (communist) management.

The loot and plunder was truly gone.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#183

Post by Nursie »

selfhoster11 wrote: post #171
Nursie wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Mandate that every API version that introduces breaking changes remains available for X years. Then you've just crippled the ability to deliver new functionality at a rapid pace without huge associated support costs. no?

How so? What prevents you from making new functionality available incrementally and in a backwards-compatible manner on the newest version of the API? Besides, this would reduce e-waste from perfectly functional devices that are not longer functional because the cloud endpoint went away. So it would be good for the environment too.

You’ve just imposed a set of legal constraints on an entire industry there.

You genuinely can’t see how this might stifle creativity and add costs in a small, fast moving company? I can already hear the jaded developer conversations -

“Oh god, no don’t change that, we’ll be stuck with another ‘version 3 ‘ we have to support forever”.

And the managerial equivalent - “delivering X new feature will break existing APIs and as a result of the regulations we have to keep those running, adding time to the dev cycle for back/forward porting and increasing support costs, maybe hosting costs too, best shelve it”

It’s fine for slow-moving enterprise stuff, for everyone else it’s a crazy imposition. You can’t drop a feature you don’t want to support any more, you can’t completely change how one works, you’re constrained.

Of course it’s possible to work that way, but it adds load. In the context of “Europe doesn’t have enough fast moving home-grown tech”, legislating that would be precisely the wrong move.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#184

Post by raverbashing »

MichaelRazum wrote: post #113

Living in EU. Can only say, the main reason is in my perspective regulatory and taxes. Some points - It is difficult to issue equity and get equity (tax) - Each EU country has different taxes. You are taxed lower in Netherlands than in Germany. - Each country has different regulation rules. If you do something exciting. Wow let's say a social network. You would be killed by regulation and data privacy rules. Autonomo…

There are a couple of self-driving and blockchain companies in Europe, but curiously enough they don't find it as difficult as some random internet commenter

"killed by regulation and data privacy rules"

Funny to see the same people that bemoan the privacy rules being now forced to follow them due to Apple and Google. Seems like they'll have to actually sit and think how to do instead of complaining.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#185

Post by xeromal »

pjc50 wrote: post #138
eldaisfish wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GP's phrasing is wrong but there is a point there - it is much easier to achieve success and then regulate and distribute its benefits than to go the other way round. I am not a fan of unbridled capitalism a la the USA and fully agree that more countries should strive to reach European levels of worker and civil rights... however, there is validity to the statement that Europe is currently coasting along on the spoil…

> Europe is currently coasting along on the spoils of centuries of loot and plunder. A lavish, comfortable lifestyle was handed to the citizens of western europe Well, apart from the whole WW2 business. This is the trouble with generalisations across the continent, the closer you look the less well they fit. And if you look across a continent and back in time, the situation varies even further. Germany used to be "th…

WW2 could be taken as a benefit for Europe in the macro sense.

* Influx of funding and loans from the US to rebuild

* Able to rebuild legacy systems that were destroyed in the world (roads, buildings, new code standards, etc)

* Reduced population means each individual is more valuable (See rising wages after plagues in the middle ages)

* Increased interdependency to combat Russian and US pressures

* The UN, NATO, etc

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#187

Post by jcelerier »

pelorat wrote: post #181
pilsetnieks wrote: post #25

I take offense at such massive overgeneralizations as "Europe lacks imagination." What it lacks is freely flowing funding such that risky enterprises can be funded even if 1 out of ten or 1 out of hundred actually are successful. This kills business models which cannot show any profit whatsoever, and a large portion of the remainder are killed by data regulations forbidding "alternate paths of monetization" (to put i…

In some countries, if your startup fails you're legally obliged to pay back all money that was invested in it, and you won't be able to start another until you've done so.

... it's not the case in the US ? Wtf

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#188

Post by siscia »

pelorat wrote: post #181
pilsetnieks wrote: post #25

I take offense at such massive overgeneralizations as "Europe lacks imagination." What it lacks is freely flowing funding such that risky enterprises can be funded even if 1 out of ten or 1 out of hundred actually are successful. This kills business models which cannot show any profit whatsoever, and a large portion of the remainder are killed by data regulations forbidding "alternate paths of monetization" (to put i…

In some countries, if your startup fails you're legally obliged to pay back all money that was invested in it, and you won't be able to start another until you've done so.

Which countries?

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#189

Post by [deleted] »

dgb23 wrote: post #165
qsort wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not going to comment on anything else since "flexible working laws" and "less relaxing lifestyle" can mean anything, but "light a fire under their ass until they are forced to innovate" is unironically and unapologetically good. If there's one thing that consistently fosters innovation and progress it's competition. That's something that holds true everywhere. Software, industry, education, games, sports, you name it…

The most impactful and important innovations typically come from people who are intrinsically motivated. Also, competition skews innovation towards solving problems that arrive from competition. You might just be hiring lawyers to bully a competitor instead of fostering sustainable progress. Or if your market is unregulated you can decide to use more severe methods.

[deleted]

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#190

Post by pwthornton »

jcelerier wrote: post #187
pelorat wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In some countries, if your startup fails you're legally obliged to pay back all money that was invested in it, and you won't be able to start another until you've done so.

... it's not the case in the US ? Wtf

It's not a loan from a bank. It's an investment, and the nature of investments are that some fail.

It's pretty wild that founders would need to pay back this money. That would have a massive drag on any risk taking or innovation.

The entire point of venture capital and similar funding mechanisms is that in exchange for a potential massive return on investment, funders are willing to lose everything.

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