Calling Bullshit on Unpaid Interships • Hacker News Board

Re: Calling Bullshit on Unpaid Interships

#181

Post by bugsy » Fri, Jul 01, 2011, 3:30 AM UTC

hugh3 wrote: post #175

bugsy wrote: post #174

In the US there's two very different sorts of internships. The first is what you describe, scamming desperate people during a economic depression out of free skilled labor that has monetary value to the company. The second is internships at places like magazines, newspapers and politicians offices. These ones are more interesting. Poor people and minorities can't afford to work for a year for free. But the children o…

Poor people and minorities can't afford to work for a year for free Poor people and minorities? So minorities, even if they happen to be individually rich, can't afford to work for a year for free?

Thanks. To clarify, certain classes of minorities, because of endemic racism, are statistically less financially able to work for free for a year. These are the sorts of types of minorities that certain kinds of firms don't want to hire, but also don't want to be held accountable. Unpaid internships, to which said minorities, and the poor (including white trash) do not apply, act as a filtering mechanism to make sure only the right sorts of blue blooded folks end up getting hired.

Re: Calling Bullshit on Unpaid Interships

#182

Post by georgieporgie » Fri, Jul 01, 2011, 3:33 AM UTC

zeemonkee wrote: post #125

jcromartie wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there's even more to the parallel: many unpaid interns are kids coming from expensive schools with high levels of student debt.

There's something going on here. I don't know about the US, but in the UK social mobility is actually worse than in the 1950s: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1555697/UK-one-of-wor... So, you have a pattern where: - More people are going into higher education - We are in the middle of a deep recession - As a consequence of these factors, there is less public money per student, so students have to pay more - As…

Employers see a college/university degree as a requirement, even for jobs that don't really need them

Don't forget the classic, which I've seen come up during two crashes now: "Only accepting applicants with a degree from a top-ranked school." I don't know if you get that over there, but it seems to get really popular as soon as the economy tanks.

Re: Calling Bullshit on Unpaid Interships

#183

Post by georgieporgie » Fri, Jul 01, 2011, 3:36 AM UTC

I don't know why there aren't more low-level tech jobs for college students. I paid for a couple years of state school by working in a deli. The only jobs I saw that would hire a "college kid" were on campus, and those basically boiled down to having the right connections as soon as you arrived. No longer a freshman and nothing related on your resume? Not interested.

Re: Calling Bullshit on Unpaid Interships

#184

Post by invalidOrTaken » Fri, Jul 01, 2011, 3:38 AM UTC

WillyF wrote: post #37

I didn't realize that the unpaid internship situation is as bad in Ireland as it is here in the U.S. My startup helps college students find entry level jobs and internships, so I'm constantly aware of what the latest trends are. One trend that really scares me is that there are some "career experts" whom I interact with regularly who offer their own unpaid virtual internships (I've seen lots of other internships like…

Unfortunately, interns aren't going to be the ones to stop this trend. Unpaid interns do benefit from their internships. They mostly accept it as something that they have to do, and they know that if they refuse to take an unpaid internship, there are thousands of other students who will snap up the opportunity.

I don't think this will always be the case. As more people work on things that scale, the importance of quality will become more obvious, and employers will be more motivated to find the best. On the intern side, as it becomes more obvious to people how vulnerable large firms are to disruption by agile startups, the knowledge of how to price, value, and market oneself will become more widespread, and fewer grads will be taken unawares.

Re: Calling Bullshit on Unpaid Interships

#185

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Jul 01, 2011, 3:39 AM UTC

WillyF wrote: post #37

I didn't realize that the unpaid internship situation is as bad in Ireland as it is here in the U.S. My startup helps college students find entry level jobs and internships, so I'm constantly aware of what the latest trends are. One trend that really scares me is that there are some "career experts" whom I interact with regularly who offer their own unpaid virtual internships (I've seen lots of other internships like…

[deleted]

Re: Calling Bullshit on Unpaid Interships

#186

Post by lotharbot » Fri, Jul 01, 2011, 3:49 AM UTC

ceejayoz wrote: post #180

lotharbot wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you're making minimum wage, there's not much consumption to be lowered. Rent, transport, and food will eat it all up (and then some). Rent, transportation, and food are consumption. If they're eating up everything and then some, find a way to lower them. Move in with your parents if you have to, or share a place with friends. Learn to love rice, beans, and potatoes. Walk or take the bus. There are lots of option…

If you're making minimum wage, chances are you're already riding the bus, eating rice, beans, and potatoes. Chances are also pretty good that your parents and friends are in a similar financial situation. How many minimum wage earners have a MS degree like you?

> If you're making minimum wage, chances are you're already riding the bus, eating rice, beans, and potatoes.

This is true of very few of the minimum wage and less earners I've been friends with over the years. (I apologize, I don't have broader statistics than "people I know".)

It's amazing how little money you can get by on if you're willing to really cut back. I don't think it takes an MS degree to figure out how.

Re: Calling Bullshit on Unpaid Interships

#187

Post by zachcb » Fri, Jul 01, 2011, 4:31 AM UTC

I'm very desperate to join a startup as an intern or employee. Some of us (me) have been dreaming (literally) about being in a startup that it doesn't matter what we do, as long as we get in one. It's gotten to the point where I would even pay to be in one. What I get out of it is that I will see if a startup is right for me, and at this point that's all I can ask for.

Re: Calling Bullshit on Unpaid Interships

#188

Post by yxhuvud » Fri, Jul 01, 2011, 5:56 AM UTC

blumentopf wrote: post #40

WillyF wrote: post #37

I didn't realize that the unpaid internship situation is as bad in Ireland as it is here in the U.S. My startup helps college students find entry level jobs and internships, so I'm constantly aware of what the latest trends are. One trend that really scares me is that there are some "career experts" whom I interact with regularly who offer their own unpaid virtual internships (I've seen lots of other internships like…

When Germany entered an economic slump after the Euro-introduction in 2002, companies loathed hiring on permanent positions. As a result, people who came out of college were hired on internships. An entire generation of young students were taken advantage of in this way, dubbed "Generation Praktikum" by the media (literally "generation internship"). It's sad to see the same happening in Ireland / the US now.

Funny, here in Sweden this caused a shift not to internshifts but to people being hired by the staffing companies.

The current situation is pretty different though - there is a huge lack of all kinds of IT people and it is really easy to get a job.

Re: Calling Bullshit on Unpaid Interships

#189

Post by andrewflnr » Fri, Jul 01, 2011, 6:51 AM UTC

Last summer, I took an unpaid internship at a software company, if it can be called an internship. I was introduced to someone who worked there, and he got it worked out for me. I didn't work on core stuff for the company, so maybe it was less an internship than just hanging out in the offices while I worked on an open-source project relevant to them, specifically github.com/andrewf/pcap2har .

I learned a crap-load of stuff there, technical and otherwise. I am enormously better off having taken that opportunity. Would I have been worse off if I had worked on stuff that directly made them money? No.

My friend has left to work on his own startup, but I started this week as a paid intern. I hope to keep working part-time when I start school again.

I cant speak for other people's experience with less-scrupulous employers, but I have nothing but gratitude for the people who gave me my unpaid internship.

Re: Calling Bullshit on Unpaid Interships

#190

Post by zeemonkee » Fri, Jul 01, 2011, 6:58 AM UTC

synnik wrote: post #134

mitcheme wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my school, we call them "co-op jobs". If you sign up for co-op, you get college credit for them, but either way you get paid. And of course if you're any good, your co-op employers will want to hang onto you after you graduate. I didn't bother signing up for co-op because co-op or no, it's impossible to complete all the other graduation requirements and not have enough credits. So the credits you get from a co-op…

You also inadvertently prove a more subtle point of internships. Employees who offer the greatest value are ones who are engaged with the company and want to be part of it. If someone doesn't think enough of us to want to go through the trouble of an internship, and think working for us is absurd, then they would not have been a good fit anyway. No loss to us if they don't work with us.

I don't think even the worst 19th century robber-baron would have stooped so low as to consider asking his minions to pay for the privilege of working for him.

There is much talk of a "sense of entitlement" when talking of young people today. I've not seen much evidence of that, but what I have seen is a "sense of entitlement" among companies - many of whom are certainly not hard up - with regard to taking on untrained employees.