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Bob Dylan lays down what killed rock n roll (2016)

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Re: Bob Dylan lays down what killed rock n roll (2016)

#181
post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't say you're out of the loop. Generally speaking I think you're right in what you're saying (commercial vs. underground). Ultimately it's just a label that people can apply to certain things to lump stuff into a category for them to conceptualise what "thing in category" is. In the UK (at least in my experience), we had an existing label to call this "thing". Then Skrillex, Steve Aoki etc happened and everyo…

I believe Aphex Twin's label Rephlex called it braindance originally. I've always liked their description: "braindance is the genre that encompasses the best elements of all genres, e.g traditional, classical, electronic music, popular, modern, industrial, ambient, hip hop, electro, house, techno, breakbeat, hardcore, ragga, garage, drum and bass, etc."

IDM first gained mainstream attention with the Warp records compilation album "Artificial Intelligence", which called it "electronic listening music." It's a pity this name never caught on, because it's more accurate than IDM. Wikipedia quotes Warp co-founder Steve Beckett:

"You could sit down and listen to it like you would a Kraftwerk or Pink Floyd album. That's why we put those sleeves on the cover of Artificial Intelligence – to get it into people's minds that you weren't supposed to dance to it!"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_Intelligence_(compi...

Re: Bob Dylan lays down what killed rock n roll (2016)

#182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know, techno parties (and illegal raves) like the ones you talk about are still happening, especially here in Europe. EDM is pure garbage and rife with narcissism.

you must be using a different definition of edm to me. according to the definition I accept, then our rave scene is a small corner of edm which literally is an umbrella term for all electronic dance music. ...i'd be interested to know what term you use for the latter?

Not the commenter you posed the question to, but I suspect their dislike for the term EDM is similar to how I felt about the term "electronica" back in the 90's when mainstream artists were appropriating sounds and ideas from electronic artists. When the music was mostly underground or found at illegal parties it felt original and pure, but once the broader music industry took notice and started pillaging it for profit it felt dirty and sacrilegious.

My preferred umbrella term for electronic dance music is simply "electronic music". This helps make room under the umbrella for all manner of experimental and sometimes undanceable music as well. Death to the over-(sub)-genre-fication of electronic music!

Re: Bob Dylan lays down what killed rock n roll (2016)

#183
post #178

The article makes a very strenuous effort to make a point about something something racism in rock that sounds a bit boring and trite to my ears. After all, Bon Scott said it best years ago: In the beginning Back in nineteen fifty five Man didn't know 'bout a rock 'n' roll show And all that jive The white man had the schmaltz The black man had the blues No one knew what they was gonna do But Tchaikovsky had the news…

Because culture has been weaponized against minorities: “The poverty rate among black married couples has been in single digits ever since 1994. You would never learn that from most of the media. Similarly if you look at those blacks that have gone on to college or finished college, the incarceration rate is some tiny fraction of what it is among those blacks who have dropped out of high school. So it’s not being bla…

The poverty rate is still between two or three times that of white (non-Hispanic) married couples.

Allegations of poor moral character are a stock racist talking point - which ignores the reality of the poor moral character of those who lean right but are privileged enough not to have to face consequences, and also the huge differences in social and economic opportunity.

Re: Bob Dylan lays down what killed rock n roll (2016)

#184
Some thoughts as they come to me:

This completely trackballs my perspective on rock, which has been set for some time now by my understanding of what happened on Disco Demolition Day. The dynamics therein are hard to articulate in their complexity, but I realize now maybe best summed up not as attempted cultural genocide but instead as a sort of Cain-and-Abel moment. Wow.

On black musical artistry and afrofuturism, and in particular, this line: "He would’ve taken experimental cosmological jazz to new dimensions, marrying philosophical inquiry with technological speculation, and tapped into the potentialities of futurist prophecy long before Silicon Valley."

Please go listen to Earth, Wind, and Fire's Fantasy. What strikes you about its thematic thrust? Transcendence, reflection, mind made manifest? It's about the Singularity.

Re: Bob Dylan lays down what killed rock n roll (2016)

#185
post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because culture has been weaponized against minorities: “The poverty rate among black married couples has been in single digits ever since 1994. You would never learn that from most of the media. Similarly if you look at those blacks that have gone on to college or finished college, the incarceration rate is some tiny fraction of what it is among those blacks who have dropped out of high school. So it’s not being bla…

The poverty rate is still between two or three times that of white (non-Hispanic) married couples. Allegations of poor moral character are a stock racist talking point - which ignores the reality of the poor moral character of those who lean right but are privileged enough not to have to face consequences, and also the huge differences in social and economic opportunity.

Thomas Sowell is anything but a racist… take off the blinders.

Re: Bob Dylan lays down what killed rock n roll (2016)

#186

The article makes a very strenuous effort to make a point about something something racism in rock that sounds a bit boring and trite to my ears. After all, Bon Scott said it best years ago: In the beginning Back in nineteen fifty five Man didn't know 'bout a rock 'n' roll show And all that jive The white man had the schmaltz The black man had the blues No one knew what they was gonna do But Tchaikovsky had the news…

As a black English man who enjoys a bit of rock and metal myself I have wondered this myself. I have some theories, which I fully admit are half baked and quite possibly incorrect. However, I think that a lot of the culture around rock and metal is off-putting to a lot of black people. If you look at something like black metal and it's sub-genres, a lot of the culture and imagery revolves around satanism and European…

There are underground metal scenes in the Muslim world, in spite of disapproval from officialdom that the music is anti-religious. Those in Lebanon and Iran have been well covered, for example. Often its afficionados speak of the supposed universality of metal, and certainly don’t see it as bound to European paganism, so that alone doesn’t seem to explain its failure to connect with those of Afro and Caribbean heritage.

I would instead point to the fact that you can't really dance to metal. Music-making in West Africa and in its diaspora is strongly connected to dancing socially (and maybe getting your freak on), which has never been a priority of metal.

Re: Bob Dylan lays down what killed rock n roll (2016)

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> techno (yes, created by African-Americans in Detroit) if you define "techno" in a very particular way, that's true. if you define "techno" in the broader sense in which it is typically used, it was created by Germans in Dusseldorf, whose music is acknowledged by the Detroit scene makers as pivotal in their own evolution.

That would be another perspective, and if you took it literally it'd be just as wrong. As near as I can tell, the earliest electronic stuff such as Kraftwerk was NOT itself techno as we know it, but did indeed spark what was happening in Detroit. The minimalism and atonality of techno caught on simultaneously in Detroit and Germany, and developed in both places. I'm not sure how influential post-Kraftwerk German tech…

There are some misconceptions here, I think.

Early Kraftwerk doesn't have much to do with techno (other than the historical lineage). The 3 albums up to and including Ralf & Florian are only incidentally part of the musical pathway that starts with Autobahn, and are influential only in as much as the band (Ralf & Florian in particular) became familiar with electronics over those 4 years.

Autobahn is absolutely not atonal, and Trans Europe Express which was arguably the critical album in defining their connection to Detroit Techno was an extremely melodic album for the most part.

It is not true that anything about techno caught on "simultaneously in Detroit and Germany". Most people would date the origins of Detroit techno in the early 1980s. The "scene" that gave rise to it arguably originated in the late 1970s, but in 1977 that scene, like house in Chicago, was defined by the music various DJ's played, not by records being made. It was only in the 1980s that Detroit techno (and Juan Atkins in particular) actually started making records. By that time, Kraftwerk had been a band for a decade, and had already released "The Man Machine" and "Computerworld", two absolutely seminal albums.

I think you are correct to say "the use as a heavy beat dance music owes a great deal to black American dance genres." It seems fairly certain that Kraftwerk did not regard their music as dance music, or rather, they did not create it as dance music. On the other hand, Moroder had already produced "I Feel Love" in 1977 also, so the idea of electronic dance music was not in itself a Detroit innovation. HiNRG was a scene very contemporaneous with the setting up of the Detroit techno scene, and also represented the use of electronics to make dance music, and like Detroit techno, was very strong connected to existing black American dance genres.

The particular sound that Atkins et al. pioneered was very much their own, and its this sound that is what makes Detroit techno unique. And we can recognize that innovation without ignoring its origins, just as one might celebrate what the Rolling Stones did without obscuring its very clear origins in delta blues.

The wikipedia section on the history of Detroit techno makes it clear just how much the originators felt they were influenced by Kraftwerk (i.e. a LOT):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Techno#Detroit_techno

Contemporary German techno is hugely influenced by Detroit techno, much more so than a direct line to Kraftwerk. But that's a much, much later development, and doesn't have much to do with the origins of techno itself.

We should also note that Kraftwerk were also hugely inspirational to the origins of hip-hop too. What is arguably the first hip-hop record, "Planet Rock" by Afrika Bambaata, is just a mix of Kraftwerk's "Trans Europe Express" and "Numbers", topped with NY rap.

Personally, I view almost all music as evolutionary. There are very few examples of musicans or composers who truly have no precursors. I don't know how useful it is to try to talk about the origins of any particular style of music (or even just one piece of music) when it is almost always a tangled web spanning decades if not centuries in time, and often whole continents in space. And for me, most of the best music humanity has made also generally comes from a hybridization between cultures.

However, if there really are any examples of revolutionary bands or composers, then I'd nominate Kraftwerk for the category. Although albums like Autobahn, Trans Europe Express and Computerworld fit firmly into western 12 tone conventions, and use relatively conventional rhythmic structure, the music was almost without any precedent at all. Early Detroit techno sounds a lot like Kraftwerk. Kraftwerk didn't sound like anybody else at all, not even the other electronic music being made in Germany at that time.

Re: Bob Dylan lays down what killed rock n roll (2016)

#189
post #181
post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe Aphex Twin's label Rephlex called it braindance originally. I've always liked their description: "braindance is the genre that encompasses the best elements of all genres, e.g traditional, classical, electronic music, popular, modern, industrial, ambient, hip hop, electro, house, techno, breakbeat, hardcore, ragga, garage, drum and bass, etc."

IDM first gained mainstream attention with the Warp records compilation album "Artificial Intelligence", which called it "electronic listening music." It's a pity this name never caught on, because it's more accurate than IDM. Wikipedia quotes Warp co-founder Steve Beckett: "You could sit down and listen to it like you would a Kraftwerk or Pink Floyd album. That's why we put those sleeves on the cover of Artificial I…

Totally agreed on electronic listening music. I spend a lot of time listening to IDM in an armchair not dancing!

Re: Bob Dylan lays down what killed rock n roll (2016)

#190
post #140
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And if you look at what is happening on Bandcamp or Soundcloud or YouTube or wherever else young people are trying new things you see a tremendous heterogeneity of inspiration and not a lot of concern for where the sound fits in. One way I have heard to mentally categorize things: What is the stereotypical musical instrument of that generation/genre? For jazz and the silent generation it was the saxophone, maybe ot…

The laptop? Or the DAW?

Good point. But I feel that a DAW is a bit higher up the professionalization chain for most of the kids out there.

However, for the keyboard, mic, headphone, software, etc you're in the ~$500+ range. But, a Silvertone Stratotone in 1960 was ~$55. That's ~$500 today when adjusting for inflation, so right in the ballpark.

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