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Microsoft bids $44.6B to buy Yahoo (2008)

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181–190 of 228 posts

Re: Microsoft bids $44.6B to buy Yahoo (2008)

#181

I worked at Yahoo! when this was going on, I’m amazed the share holders didn’t sue Jerry Yang and the board for avoiding this sale. Yahoo had very little of technological value and was actively trying to destroy its own search business amongst other properties at the time. They really were in a prime position and bungled it extremely badly, I think they had maybe 20% of the search market at the time. Carol Bartz late…

Having 20% of a gazillion dollar business is still zillions of dollars.

I bought some Yahoo stock thinking Meyers was going to turn it around, but nope.

Re: Microsoft bids $44.6B to buy Yahoo (2008)

#182

The years from 2006 to 2010 gave rise to today's BigTech. Microsoft, Yahoo!, and Google were pioneers in the data-centers space. Amazon was only beginning to turn-up the heat. In retrospect, given the engineering talent and expertise at Y! at the time, it is a shame that in light of AWS' success they did not invest in Infrastructure-as-a-Service when their "web services" org was already churning out a range of tools…

It's a huge missed opportunity, given the amount of datacenter capacity they had, not to mention standardizing on BSD. With BSD's concept of jails, virtualization was way easier - and this was a decade+ before Docker.

Re: Microsoft bids $44.6B to buy Yahoo (2008)

#183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am no longer a Google fan. Haven't been for years so there's no bias. I'm sorry, I guess I inferred the wrong conclusion from your statements. I would argue that your perception of Google at the time would be a more significant factor influencing your perception of their performance, but that's actually largely beside the point. > That may be the case today because the results are similar now, but it wasn't the s…

Reading your comments, I am experiencing some cognitive dissonance. On one hand, you write very convincingly, and seem to have access to data showing that you are right. On the other hand, my personal experience just tells me that you are wrong. Like the other commenters, I distinctly remember just how much better Google's search was back in the days. And I must be one of those cited 10%-30% of users that try to swit…

If it helps, I was just as surprised by the results at the time. ;-)

DuckDuckGo is working at a significant disadvantage as compared to Google. For starters, they have significantly smaller market share. This is no longer like the days of yore when the market was much more fragmented. Google's market share is roughly 18x larger than DDG's. That means they get far less behavioural data to inform their ranking algorithm. That also dramatically impacts the amount of revenue they can feed in to the engine (and the impact isn't linear, as I mentioned elsewhere). Then add on that their privacy efforts mean they are deliberately blinding themselves to much of the data that can be used to tune a search engine. It'd be amazing if their result quality was better.

Again, it wasn't an illusion that Google's search results were better, particularly whenever people switched (which mostly happened long before Google gained a dominant market share). I would argue that even with comparable technology, today Google has an overwhelming advantage over competitors. I'd be surprised if it weren't absolutely the best at least amongst any of the alternatives that most people would even consider. That's just not how they got most of their market share.

The illusion is that technical advantages were the primary driver of Google's success in the search engine market, and that Google has consistently been the best search engine in the market. The former is just clearly not true (the AOL deal alone helped them way more than any subsequent technical innovations), and the latter flies against the evidence that at the very least during height of the search engine wars, result relevance was very competitive.

Re: Microsoft bids $44.6B to buy Yahoo (2008)

#184
post #172
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We just drank the cool aid and clicked "install". That's misrepresenting the search market's reality though. For most people, they never clicked install.

> That's misrepresenting the search market's reality though. For most people, they never clicked install. The author was talking about Chrome.

On the other hand, the author's statement flies in the face of the reality that Chrome's market share at the end of the year was ~1%. ;-)

Re: Microsoft bids $44.6B to buy Yahoo (2008)

#185
post #64

I worked at Yahoo! when this was going on, I’m amazed the share holders didn’t sue Jerry Yang and the board for avoiding this sale. Yahoo had very little of technological value and was actively trying to destroy its own search business amongst other properties at the time. They really were in a prime position and bungled it extremely badly, I think they had maybe 20% of the search market at the time. Carol Bartz late…

If you are flabbergasted by the fact Yahoo, and everyone else for that matter, thought it absolutely impossible to disrupt Google (except for perhaps a handful of hubris-riddled people at MS), please remember the general sentiment HN used to have towards Google who according to us, at that time, could do no wrong. They were infallible. They were the brightest people in the world. They were The Good Guy (TM). They wer…

To be fair I think Google really was better back then, and unfortunately they've changed.

Re: Microsoft bids $44.6B to buy Yahoo (2008)

#186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Long before Google became such a dominant player, competing search engines had matched or exceeded its quality, compute cost, and ability to scale. Just curious, which ones? I remember Google felt so far above any other search engine for a very long time.

Inktomi, Altavista, AllTheWeb, all later under Yahoo. No question about the "feel", but it's amazing how perception fuels reality. We did a lot of studies of this, and one of the more interesting ones was that if you told people they were seeing Google search results (regardless if they were), they'd be more inclined to rewrite their queries and look farther down in the search results, rather than try using another s…

[Google employee, but AltaVista fanboy previously, been on the internet since the 80s and used all of these as they hit the market, and I remember the joy/excitement as each one hit in those days, like a moon landing. Also a DEC Alpha fanboy :)]

No way Altavista or Inktomi offered better result than Google. I was a heavy user of both, having adopted AltaVista mainly for similar reasons that I adopted Google, because AltaVista had way fresher and more extensive content than competitors at the time, it offered query modifiers, multi-lingual queries, and media search (images, etc), it even had Babelfish translation. It was obviously, unequivocally better than everything else before it. So the value proposition was unambiguous.

Google was similarly an obvious value proposition when it launched. PageRank was objectively better at returning the most salient results. AltaVista did ranking purely based on how the query phrase matched the index. As the Web grew, the amount of junk it would return piled up, it's easy to spam or game such a ranking algorithm.

As for Inktomi, you can read Inktomi's own employee account: https://www.searchenginewatch.com/2012/05/10/why-google-beat... Inktomi employees were using Google Search as their primary search engine. If you're not using your own product, you've got problems, how can you expect your customers/users to use it if you won't?

Yes, Google's brand is strong, and marginal returns in search quality mean most consumers won't notice the difference between engines, and will judge based on brand or UI presentation now. But to claim Inktomi and AltaVista matched Google Search results I think is rewriting history, when Google launched, the difference in quality was quite obvious and striking.

These days search engines have other requirements given how big the web is, how rapidly it changes, and how many adversarial attacks are made against it (blackhat SEO/webspam). You've got to have the infrastructure to index the entire web frequently, you've got to have a robust defense against spam, and you've got to have an even better ranking strategy beyond PageRank because a lot of the long tail may be good content, but doesn't have many authoritative sites linking to it.

There's still the possibility of someone upstaging Google, by building a search engine that not only indexes the Web, but has the reading comprehension to understand it, and understand queries from the context of gained knowledge. The first company to do that will kill Google Search, as the results will be self-evidently better. There are queries today that GPT-3 can do that Google can't, they're amazing when they work, mindblowing. If you can scale that to the Star Trek level computer, you win.

But you can't displace Google with a 2% improvement in results.

Re: Microsoft bids $44.6B to buy Yahoo (2008)

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Essentially all of their tech was taken from Robin Li and AltaVista/DEC. Brin did a lot of the implementation work, Page did nothing (a lot of the work he did do, didn't scale, and was highly inferior to existing work as he wasn't a strong programmer...I think he provided a server room or something, he was the snake oil salesman). The actual technological innovation in the search product was minimal (the stuff they d…

The tech was "stolen" from HITS/IBM Research. Because of their success with their initial data center approach AltaVista was arguably one of the last to shift to a model that more closely resembled the one Google employed, but they certainly did a very fine job of it (late mover advantage and all that). I still liked AllTheWeb's data centers somewhat better, but at that point the differences were pretty small. I woul…

I worked at IBM TJ Watson research at the time. It's hard to "steal" from IBM, because at the time I was there, IBM's #1 problem was getting its research into the world.

In 1996, I worked in a group on digital cash payment schemes, digital checking, years before PayPal, they had a trusted enclave (CITADEL PCMCIA card), we had a MIME plugin for Mosaic and Unix email that would do peer to peer digital money transfers, and when it came time to ask "when are we going to try to productize this", the answer came back "we talked with banks and will be ready to do a pilot project in 5 years"

This is much like Steve Jobs "stealing" GUI, Smalltalk, and Ethernet from PARC and claiming there was no innovation. At that stage, shipping something consumers can use is innovation.

If you were a techie/engineer in 1998, as opposed to a general consumer (of which there were very few), Google results WERE better than AltaVista and competitors. The early adopters and pioneers switched because like with Chrome v1, a lot of the value proposition was obvious.

The bigger question perhaps is why didn't their competitors react quickly to prevent their rise, and I think the answer to that is in general, once a company makes a large splash, and gets the public attention, it's hard for others to overcome the free value from being the thought leader. This is true of Apple and true of Tesla in cars. Tesla makes the best EV right now. It's sexy, it's fast, and Elon Musk commands the world's attention. One day, other brands will catch up, they'll be Tesla competitors just as good, but no one will care, and Tesla -- if Musk doesn't fsck it up -- will continue to have a halo effect, a reality distortion field.

Re: Microsoft bids $44.6B to buy Yahoo (2008)

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chrome was an excellent browser when it launched... It might not be able to compete with such a wide gap against all the Chromium based clones out there now, but it was rightfully an amazing experience. Initially its only competition felt like Firefox

a list of shockers - streamed install process (download a shim of 300kB which will stream the rest) - obviously the chromeless ui - the dynamic status bar (ok that was the point above) - downloads shown below (as cute as the status bar, actually I miss that thing) - something about tab closing that was more regular (no need to move your mouse) - option / printing lean and fast

Counter-points:

1. At the time, Firefox’ total installer size was ~4-5MB.

2. Much lighter than the contemporaneous IE8 and default Firefox skin, but it just came down to removing the menu-bar and status bar. Chrome’s lack of a traditional menu-bar put me off for a while, I’ll admit. I also disagreed with Chrome having its own visual-style on Windows instead of using the system theme. I know Chrome integrated with Aero Glass on Vista-and-later, but I was an XP hold-out until 2013 when I jumped to Windows 8.1.

3. “Dynamic” is overselling it. Internet Explorer had an auto-hiding status bar since version 4, albeit only in full-screen mode.

4. How is that a good thing? It wastes a thick line of screen space if you downloaded a single file. I preferred Firefox’s separate download manager window.

5. IIRC, Chrome’s “close-everything-without-moving-the-mouse” feature wasn’t in its earlier releases - and I had that functionality in Firefox (back when Firefox had a single close-current-tab button on the far-right instead of close buttons on each tab)

6. Who prints web-pages? Even in 2008.

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But yeah, Chrome’s attempt at cutting down unnecessary UI was bold - and prompted Microsoft to redo IE9’s UI to look like Chrome’s in 2011 (despite that, they never fixed the “snappy” feel that Chrome has - why does IE still freeze briefly for 1-2 frames every time you switch tabs? Why is the address bar still so fiddly? Oh well, IE is dead now so we’ll never know...)

Re: Microsoft bids $44.6B to buy Yahoo (2008)

#189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re still conflating “profit” with “revenue”. No one is doubting that YouTube’s revenue is substantial. There is doubt that it’s profit is substantial. If it isn’t contributing any meaningful profit to Google’s bottom line, it isn’t successful.

Would you say that Uber, Lyft, Spotify, and Tesla are all unsuccessful companies?

Is this really a serious question? The success of a for profit company is defined by “profitability”.

Spotify - like Jobs said about DropBox, they are a feature not a product. Most of their revenue goes back to the record labels. Their gross margins are slim

Uber - is losing billions and it’s unit economics isn’t good.

Lyft - See Uber

Tesla - it’s “profits” aren’t from selling cars.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/31/investing/tesla-profitability...

Re: Microsoft bids $44.6B to buy Yahoo (2008)

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chrome was an excellent browser when it launched... It might not be able to compete with such a wide gap against all the Chromium based clones out there now, but it was rightfully an amazing experience. Initially its only competition felt like Firefox

a list of shockers - streamed install process (download a shim of 300kB which will stream the rest) - obviously the chromeless ui - the dynamic status bar (ok that was the point above) - downloads shown below (as cute as the status bar, actually I miss that thing) - something about tab closing that was more regular (no need to move your mouse) - option / printing lean and fast

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