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Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

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Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#181

Post by 908B64B197 »

thethethethe wrote: post #164
plank_time wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How are they not being treated with humanity? They started with no skills or experience and were trained from scratch. How many jobs train on the job? Paid a good wage in an easy job and given a job for 2 years. Is that not humane and fair? How much of your salary are you willing to give up so that these people get their job security?

Every job requires some amount of on the job training. FTEs of all levels at Google are practically useless for at least 6 months after they join, often requiring hours of training and 1-1s. It's pretty standard. Yeah I agree that it sounds like a good deal until they fire you after two years and don't allow you to move up like they used to. These terminations are arbitrary, unnecessary, and legitimely harmful to peo…

> and don't allow you to move up like they used to

Is there even a position to move up to?

> These terminations are arbitrary, unnecessary, and legitimely harmful to people's lives, so no I don't think it's fair or humane.

That's something they should bring to Modis, their employers. Also, do they operate any other data centers outside of Google ones?

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#182

Post by twiddling »

freeone3000 wrote: post #133
frankbreetz wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but why are they no allow to do the same job as a Google employee? Isn't starting as a contractor and being brought on as an fte common practice?

Because if they're doing the job an FTE does, they should be full-time from the start. Otherwise, a company could be doing software development or food delivery or whatever and have no employees at all, merely having them all be "independent" "contractors" with very few legal protections.

That's the dream

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#183

Post by hinkley »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #147
dx034 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you have to give them a huge boost in comp? There's no union at Google, they can pay whatever they see fit. They could just hire them at lower salaries but that'd destroy the image that anyone working at a FAANG makes at least $250k/yr.

A W-2 employee has to be offered all the same benefits as other employees to pass non discrimination testing to keep all those other benefits tax free. W-2 employees also increase unemployment insurance premiums, as well as be liabilities when it comes time to downsize. I doubt it has anything to do with image.

Coming from the other direction, the whole point of keeping them as contractors is that it reduces costs. Therefore, converting them by definition means increased costs.

Seems that they're running the same gambit Microsoft did years ago. Microsoft did not win that court case, and that set precedent that other companies are now trying to stay clear of.

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#184

Post by syshum »

0xEFF wrote: post #160
syshum wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should be very clear, I oppose government mandated lock downs.

Seems selfish. Lockdowns reduce deaths. Edit: I don’t mean to call anyone names, genuinely interested in understanding if you’re concerned about being perceived as selfish and if so how you reconcile the tension?

>>if you’re concerned about being perceived as selfish

I am not, All persons act in their own personal or familial self interest, to deny that is to deny reality.

>>and if so how you reconcile the tension?

I dont plan to

>> Lockdowns reduce deaths.

There is very little actual evidence of this, even further there is little evidence that draconian government measures have done more than voluntary action of informed persons.

It is far too large of topic to discuss here but no one can honestly say "draconian government lock-downs were the best way to deal with the pandemic" because that is simply false.

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#185

Post by dantheman »

mstipetic wrote: post #180
Goronmon wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every person that values freedom, individuality, and prosperity should reject any policy or law that is based on a "greater good" narrative So pretty much all laws and policies? Anarchy doesn't seem that sustainable.

I don’t understand why all the staunch libertarians just don’t move to a favela or some other similar place where they can enjoy absolute freedoms

Why don't people that want all these new things move to where they already exist?

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#186

Post by syshum »

mstipetic wrote: post #180
Goronmon wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every person that values freedom, individuality, and prosperity should reject any policy or law that is based on a "greater good" narrative So pretty much all laws and policies? Anarchy doesn't seem that sustainable.

I don’t understand why all the staunch libertarians just don’t move to a favela or some other similar place where they can enjoy absolute freedoms

In Response to this common statement we have 2 video responses

You Can Always Leave ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fasTSY-dB-s )

Why Libertarianism Is So Dangerous ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbNFJK1ZpVg )

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#187

Post by mjevans »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #151
ahelwer wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why continue to allow the existence of these various parasitic middlemen health insurance companies with their redundant bureaucracies and the N x N billing problems, networks, etc. they introduce?

Because there are insufficient votes in Congress to change it. Even the current implementation of various managed care organizations and mandatory coverage with limits on premiums and out of pocket maximums BARELY passed. And it was gutted pretty quickly when the most important part of it, mandatory purchasing of insurance (I.e. a tax), was repealed in 2017.

Which is crazy from the simple standpoint. All businesses other than health care coverage providers would benefit from never needing to worry about this HR burden again.

Probably those small companies lobby / donate to both parties to prevent a single payer system where normal workers and normal employees don't have to care.

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#188

Post by simfree »

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #50
pessimizer wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ms Wait would have to break her back schlepping spools around a jobsite for a few years before she could get onto the actual electrician career track. Ms Wait would be paid >=$15 to do this.

Maybe she'd get $16, but anywhere where data-center techs are making 15 general construction laborers aren't gonna be making much more and they don't get to work indoors.

In Seattle today, union electrical apprentices often earn under $18hr, while Safeway is paying new hires $20hr in Seattle and Bellevue.

General construction does not pay that much unless your licensed, bonded and running your own business or have a decade or more in with the union.

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#189

Post by Dahoon »

Larrikin wrote: post #172
ketamine__ wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand your response.

As a Google employee, Google owns everything you make even in your free time unless you go through some kind of process. Never worked there so don't know the details but have had it confirmed from other Google engineers. Some other companies got this idea as well, but it's usually very easy to get that removed from an offer.

That's because the US is so scared of (real) unions. This would never be allowed in most of the western world outside the states. I have never even encountered something like it outside of comments and blog posts by Americans. A lot here seem to be very pro contractor work. Then this is them reaping what they sow. Contractors and Workers rights are like oil and water.

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#190

Post by idiotsecant »

pkaye wrote: post #170
coryking wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> health insurance and how it's tied to employment Without getting too political, I really feel like untying health insurance from employment would transform the labor market and encourage far more entrepreneurial endeavors. People could take more risks if they didn't have to worry about losing healthcare coverage. There are obvious tradeoffs involved, but I really never see this aspect considered in public debate. M…

Isn't a lot of Europe like this? Do they have more entrepreneurial endeavors than the US?

Yes, in some places. In the US the entrepreneurship rate measuring the % of the population involved in that kind of activity hovers around 14%-ish. There are European countries like Estonia and others in the north and baltic regions that beat that rate while still providing high quality universal healthcare. As a rule, though, it seems like western European countries are significantly less entrepreneurial.

I think the entrepreneurial rate has a lot more to do with cultural attitudes around risk and individual success. Some countries like Italy, for example, have rates in the very low single digits. I'm not sure you can overall make a case for universal healthcare increasing entrepreneurial enterprise. Whether it might increase it specifically in the US might be a different question, though.

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