Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court • Hacker News Board

Re: Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court

#181

Post by kokey » Thu, Apr 15, 2021, 9:26 AM UTC

Tenoke wrote: post #130

mattmanser wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So here in the UK, our councils used to build social housing. 300,000 per year. And then Thatcher made it illegal and said privately owned housing associations would fill the gap. In the 30 years since then, the most they've ever managed is 30,000. It's not in private landowner's interest to build cheap social housing. It reduces rents, it suppresses property values. So they don't get built. If they do build anything…

I'd take them building more expensive housing (as long as it's not used purely as an empty investment vehicle as in London) over barely building anything at all. I know people who would've paid a bit more for a nicer place but their options were too limited, so I'd expect some trickle-up/down effect at least.

There is a point when you run out of people who are willing to spend millions on the empty investment vehicles so I'm hoping even those properties will help with supply when the tide eventually do go out. Unfortunately it could take a very long time before this happens.

Re: Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court

#182

Post by pharmakom » Thu, Apr 15, 2021, 9:28 AM UTC

MauranKilom wrote: post #161

pharmakom wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it that rents are so high and yet there are empty housing units? Don’t landlords want the money?

Why collect rent when the property price keeps increasing regardless? Saves you from having to deal with the tenants and saves you tons of worries/busywork like: - How tedious will it be to find suitable tenants (do you want to go through 1000 emails)? - Will they make a mess of the place? - Will they call you at random times to complain about neighbors? - Will you have to organize and deal with mechanics when e.g. t…

> Why collect rent when the property price keeps increasing regardless?

Because then you get the property price gains and the rental income on top!

I don’t doubt this is happening, I’m just trying to wrap my head around it.

Re: Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court

#183

Post by oleganza » Thu, Apr 15, 2021, 9:28 AM UTC

frereubu wrote: post #60

oleganza wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My impression of Berlin (living there for the last 2 years) is that there's plenty of space, plenty of new housing already built and plenty of new construction still going. SF, NY, Paris and London are way more crowded and under-housed in comparison. Shitty one-story supermarkets are really just a sign of abundance of space and not enough demand (yet). Among big European cities the rent seems low. You can buy an supe…

Surely a rent cap is a clear sign that there is demand though?

I think the discussion of the rent cap is more complex. In every city there's some distribution of wealth and there are plenty of people who are sensitive to rent. Then, gov orders businesses to shut down, a lot of people lose money, then gov starts playing games with various ways to buy love of voters, rent cap is one of those things.

Similarly, minimum wage is typically bumped after inflation already made its way, so most of the people are over the threshold anyway and won't be thrown out of their jobs. And those who will — are valuable voters who can be made highly dependent on state unemployment programs.

Re: Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court

#184

Post by bellyfullofbac » Thu, Apr 15, 2021, 9:29 AM UTC

throwaway85858 wrote: post #120

mousetree wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Per another comment in this thread, this isn't true. Many apartment buildings are indeed being built: https://taz.de/Mehr-Baugenehmigungen-in-Berlin/!5706294/

you should review the latest statistics, that article is from august 2020, the number of baugenehmigungs in 2020 went down in comparison to 2019. https://www.statistik-berlin-brandenburg.de/pms/2021/21-03-1... and AFAIK MietenWoG didn't fund or support the new housing developments.

Hah, how to quote statistics and ignore everything else (like a worldwide pandemic) to back up your arguments.

Re: Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court

#185

Post by southerntofu » Thu, Apr 15, 2021, 9:31 AM UTC

jdasdf wrote: post #140

southerntofu wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The amount of unused space is Berlin is just so massive. What's wrong with that? Enjoy the little green space you have left while it lasts. Have a BBQ with friends over there, maybe? The gentrifiers/developers won't be so long to remove every last bit of green and freedom in your neighborhood, as they did everywhere else.

>What's wrong with that? ...The high housing prices.

High housing prices has to do with treating housing as a market and not as a basic human need. Prices are correlated to supply and demand, only if you take into account that the biggest landlords willingly leave apartments/buildings empty to drive up the prices (speculation).

Re: Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court

#186

Post by rndgermandude » Thu, Apr 15, 2021, 9:31 AM UTC

dgellow wrote: post #69

frereubu wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I imagine this might be implicit in your comment, but it's politically much easier to bring in a rent cap ("protecting the hard-working families of Berlin") than hand out building permits ("overdevelopment!") Issuing more building permits also takes a long time to have any effect on rents, so by the time it takes effect the politician who brought it in is likely to be long gone. More permits will only happen if polit…

I'm not convinced that it is politically easier, the rent cap is a very controversial topic (for good reasons, it's really an extreme measure). A fringe may like that talking point, but that's not how you do effective policies.

In Berlin it is a good talking point. I am not commenting on whether it is effective or good policy, just that you can score politically with it (well, until the court now killed it, I suppose).

Concerns about being able to afford rent not just now but in the future is a major concern for a huge chunk of the population. They look at what happens in other large cities with rent prices (be it Munich, be it Paris, be it SF) in fear.

Berlin itself uses an unofficial slogan of "Arm aber Sexy" ("poor but sexy/attractive"), coined by a former Berlin major referring to the budget of the city but adopted by the population to mean the people living there as well. They fear that driving out poor people - including themselves - and turn it into yet another place for the rich, and/or fear "over-development" will destroy the character of the city (and the ecological consequences of such developments; the Green party is big in certain parts of Berlin).

I can see that with my sisters, who have been living in downtown-ish Berlin for a long time while "poor" (think student, almost-unpaid intern, unemployed), and who constantly complained about the rents (that my parents and later welfare paid) and scarcity of available apartments, but at the same time were e.g. very much against any plans to develop the large area of the old closed Tempelhof airport, where all plans to develop that area were abandoned after multiple public referendums decided that the area has to remain a "park". That alone is 12km² of now entirely unused space close to the heart of the city, space for about at least 50000 people considering Berlins current population density of 4118 people per km². Or develop only half of it, and leave 6km² and that's still a ton of new apartments. But nope.

Re: Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court

#187

Post by throwaway85858 » Thu, Apr 15, 2021, 9:32 AM UTC

An example of how bad the government in Berlin is would be the Pankower Tor project: https://www.tagesspiegel.de/berlin/froschlurch-muss-umgesied...

34 hectars (>90 acres) of waste land in a prime location can't be bulldozed to build 2000 new apartments because a rare species of toad was found to be living there, which can't be relocated because no state agency is responsible. The court case has been running for over 10 years!!!

Re: Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court

#188

Post by timdaub » Thu, Apr 15, 2021, 9:32 AM UTC

Tenoke wrote: post #158

timdaub wrote: post #116

I've been protected by this rule. I live in the north of Berlin. It saved me roughly 100€ a month. I found it fair for the appartment I rent. I can't say much about other cases. Since I have to pay back the cummulative savings to my landlord in case the law is overturned(which happened today), I saved 100€ extra each month. It's likely that I'll now have to increase my rent payment by 100€ and pay back roughly 1000€…

100e is pretty good. For me it was 500e less, and it made it even less possible for me to move to a smaller place which I've wanted to do since breaking up with my ex. >It's OK for me. However, I know others that will likely lose their flat now. They won't just lose their flat. If they can't backpay the rent (thousands in some cases) their Schufa will be ruined which will make it even harder if at all possible to get…

> They won't just lose their flat. If they can't backpay the rent (thousands in some cases) their Schufa will be ruined which will make it even harder if at all possible to get a new place.

Damn, I didn't consider this but it's true. Usually, landlords also want a Mietschuldenbescheinigung to check if you have rent debt with previous landlords.

What upsets me about the situation is that I feel like some people are experimenting with my property/contract/living condition. I'd prefer if they could just leave me alone. It makes me feel uncomfortable and unsafe.

Re: Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court

#189

Post by romanovcode » Thu, Apr 15, 2021, 9:33 AM UTC

avh02 wrote: post #103

kuu wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Housing situation in Germany is so fucked Housing situation in London is so fucked Housing situation in Spain is so fucked Housing situation in Canada is so fucked .... I'm not an expert, but I see a pattern there...

I used to live in Dubai - i got there at almost peak rent/real estate... I look at rents now, and they're just under half what i was paying. Sometimes tides turn the other way too.

Yeah but who wants to live in Dubai anyway. The only reason to be there is to not pay income tax.

Re: Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court

#190

Post by southerntofu » Thu, Apr 15, 2021, 9:33 AM UTC

EdwinLarkin wrote: post #160

gjulianm wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_competition#Idealizing... People can't live without housing so demand is not elastic. Plus the housing market is special regarding spatial location. Applying regular market rules as if the housing market behaved the same as, say, the screwdrivers market, does not make sense at all.

In 99% cases it's the government/zoning rules that prevent increasing the supply of housing not private investors not wanting to build enough.

That's just pro-landlord propaganda but i've never seen actual evidence of that. I have seen evidence though that landlords and public powers conspire against the population to gentrify neighborhoods and drive prices up, leaving tons of apartments empty so they can make more money speculating.