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A new moralism is gripping the literary world

persuasion.community

181–190 of 293 posts

Re: A new moralism is gripping the literary world

#181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

White isn’t a culture. Also BIPOC have made contributions to all those things. Way to erase them.

> white isn't a culture FJ Haydn spent the bulk of his working career in Hungary, toward the end of his career he went to France and England and received large adoring audiences, not as some kind of exoticism, but because he was/is a giant of European/white culture. Why would anyone say “white isn't a culture” except to express animosity towards white people? Arch, Debian, Suse, etc. are cultures, but gnu/Linux isn't…

>Why would anyone say “white isn't a culture” except to express animosity towards white people?

I truly believe the word "white" does not, in practice, describe a specific culture, or even a specific set of closely related cultures, and I have no animosity toward white people. I don't think that opinion comes anywhere near the "almost exclusively held by racists" category.

Re: A new moralism is gripping the literary world

#182
post #66

I hate this kind of anti-woke reactionary stuff. ... but for aspiring writers, there is a problem. On the one hand, writers should write what they know. They shouldn't try to assume they know some minority's lived experiences. On the other hand, literature should be inclusive. That means including minorities, and not just as peripheral characters. We don't need more My Magical Gay Friend stories. I haven't heard a go…

> I haven’t heard a good discussion on how to reconcile this contradiction. The best way to reconcile it is to stop engaging in the fallacy of division. Literature should be inclusive. Not every individual work of literature needs to be inclusive of every identity. Yes, a cis-het-male-Euro-American writer writing about unique experiences of cis-het-male-Euro-Americans (where characters of other backgrounds are seen o…

Yes, but what do you tell a straight, white writer? Not the publishing industry as a whole that has been rightly lambasted as being too homogeneous historically.

What do you tell a single writer? Should they contribute to the problem by telling more stories about white guys? Exclusively focus on their own experiences?

Or should they try to learn from people around them and include those people in their stories to create more diversity? And if so, where's the line between diversity and tokenism? Between inclusion and appropriation?

Re: A new moralism is gripping the literary world

#183
post #174
post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you can still find the six discontinued Dr. Seuss books quite easily Can you? Even used copies are now banned even on eBay. Where do you ‘easily’ find them?

Scans are widely available online, which is what most people have been using to discuss the works. It also turns out that used bookstores still exist and that eBay is not the only site on the internet where you can buy things.

The online scans are illegal. The fact that your first recommendation is to advocate breaking the law just so you can discuss a book, shows quite how totalitarian the situation has become.

Re: A new moralism is gripping the literary world

#184
post #2

If anything, such controversies make me want to get a copy of said literature and read it at the first possible instance. Can I call it the Streisand effect? Maybe. I have an unsubstantiated theory that this moral compassing at the institutional level (like the article mentions) has gathered more steam after the internet went into our phones and thus became highly accessible to the general public.

That is exactly the Streisand effect.

My local libraries used to have day/week events specifically to read banned books. I wonder if that's still a thing? If not, publishers/libraries should bring it back as it's a win/win for them.

Re: A new moralism is gripping the literary world

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

White isn’t a culture. Also BIPOC have made contributions to all those things. Way to erase them.

Then Black, Asian, or Latin aren't cultures either? The wright brothers, carl benz, charles babbage, invented flight, automobiles, and computers respectively. All very white dudes.

"Black" was a label applied to persons of many different cultures in the context of colonialism and slavery. In some places, such as the USA, Black became a cultural identity because it was a legal one; these people and their offspring were governed by a separate set of laws and only legally allowed to raise families with each other.

"Asian" is too broad a term to be much use outside of geography.

"Latin" is a little more coherent, based on both geography and language. It's still pretty broad though; there are common threads but I don't know anyone who identifies simply as Latin.

"White" as a cultural identity is a relatively new invention. Personally I don't see much in the way of a shared culture here. It's problematic for many because in the USA it's been very prominently used by persons and groups who've been opposed to increasing civil rights for non-whites. It's distasteful to others because it represents a flattening of culture -- in my experience, white Americans will generally more readily identify with a particular subset of European heritage and/or with their own state or region. But this may be changing.

Re: A new moralism is gripping the literary world

#186

> She went on to argue that Cummins, a white American woman with some Puerto Rican background, had no business writing about a culture and identity group to which she didn’t belong. Ooh, I just read Gurba's blog. Her argument in essence: a white author's inexperience with a culture leads to bad writing . Example from her blog: Mexican protagonist described by her husband as the smartest women he knows. But Mexican pr…

You may be right about Gurba, but you're dead wrong if you're trying to imply that the criticism of even just that book (to say nothing of the others mentioned in the article) was based only on the grounds of 'bad writing'. From the article:

“I was sure I was the wrong person to review this book,” Groff wrote, noting that neither she nor the author were Mexican migrants. “In contemporary literary circles, there is a serious and legitimate sensitivity to people writing about heritages that are not their own because, at its worst, this practice perpetuates the evils of colonization, stealing the stories of oppressed people for the profit of the dominant.

Re: A new moralism is gripping the literary world

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> white isn't a culture FJ Haydn spent the bulk of his working career in Hungary, toward the end of his career he went to France and England and received large adoring audiences, not as some kind of exoticism, but because he was/is a giant of European/white culture. Why would anyone say “white isn't a culture” except to express animosity towards white people? Arch, Debian, Suse, etc. are cultures, but gnu/Linux isn't…

You said it. European culture. PoC have lived in Europe for ages. So, no, you can't say 'European/white', as that erases huge groups of people and is factually wrong.

This is like saying it’s factually wrong to call Indian people POC because it erases the existence of White British people in India.

Re: A new moralism is gripping the literary world

#188
post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you can still find the six discontinued Dr. Seuss books quite easily Can you? Even used copies are now banned even on eBay. Where do you ‘easily’ find them?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nsXxt59szI

So the book isn’t available, and the only sources are illegal?

Re: A new moralism is gripping the literary world

#189
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. Living in a free and open society means defending everyone's right to have a voice, and that means defending the free speech rights of those we despise.

The point is the essay conflates allowing all voices to be heard with being ok with credibly accused sexual offenders. More generally though free speech goes both ways. Are you arguing that you should be forced to amplify positions you find repellent?

Wake me up when people are being arrested for speech, or laws are being passed to restrict free speech. I see neither of these things happening (in the USA) beyond the most extreme cases.

Woody Allen has every right to write a book, but he's not entitled to a publisher publishing it. He could easily self-publish it using any one of dozens of self-publishing platforms, or just put it on the web if he wants. Nobody can really stop him unless there's something civilly actionable in there.

All I see is private companies refusing to provide a platform to content that they don't want to support (often because it offends or just turns off large numbers of customers) or violates their terms. That's not censorship in the legal sense. You aren't entitled to someone else's platform.

Carte blanche access to platforms has never been a thing. Can you imagine walking into a newspaper office in the 1980s and demanding to publish a full page classified ad with any content you want in their newspaper and then screaming "censorship!" and "cancel culture!" when they said no? They'd send you to the psychiatric emergency ward.

The right historically defends the rights of businesses to act freely and would be defending platforms and publishers if it were not far-right content that were being dropped. Since it's far-right content, now the right has suddenly decided that access to large scale platforms is an entitlement that needs to be guaranteed by the state. The right has also done a complete 180 on the anti-trust issue... both only for tech companies that operate content platforms.

It's just so transparently partisan. They wouldn't give a crap if left-wing speech were being deplatformed.

There's one last WTF here. The right was always critical of the sexual revolution going all the way back to the 1950s. This #metoo stuff would be a golden opportunity for conservatives to sling a bit of "we told you so" shade at sexual libertines, pointing out that some sexual taboos may have existed to protect people from sexual predation.

Instead the right sides with accused sex abusers and even pedophiles, but only when the accusers are "libs." It's no longer even remotely about ideas. It's about winning for the sake of winning.

Re: A new moralism is gripping the literary world

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Letting a small publisher that was not your first choice publish your book isn’t just not “quite” self-publishing, it has nothing to do with self-publishing.

In practice, the concepts overlap more than you seem willing to admit, especially today. As a literary translator, I see this often: authors have a book they want to get out in a foreign language, but a mainstream publisher won’t touch it (due to the belief it won’t sell enough), so instead the author has to turn to a small press specializing in that kind of literature. But here’s the thing: many of those small press…

I know about everything you say here, and it’s all true. But it has nothing to do with the two novels under discussion.
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