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Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

reuters.com

181–190 of 572 posts

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#181
post #73

oh boy anti-vaxxing groups on FB are gonna eat this up all things considered, that's pretty bad news if they fucked up on some batches and people died because of poor QA

They would eat it up if this was swept under the rug and it later comes out there was a problem.

You can't cover up and refuse to investigate merely because the investigation might have bad optics.

The worst case scenario is that there is problem, its gets covered up, and then a few weeks later the problem kills people and now the public has zero faith in vaccines.

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#183
post #18

You do have to wonder if some of this is politically driven. Germany are losing hundreds of life's a day, while in the meantime the UK has administrated 23 million doses (not sure the ratio of those that were AstraZeneca) and not recorded a single fatality or adverse reaction and are seeing infection rates / deaths drop. I can understand caution under normal circumstances, but nothing is normal right now.

A problem with bureaucracies is that they often care deeply if people die from an action they are responsible for, but are fine if there are massive deaths due to inaction.

Well, yeah. First, do no harm. It's not ethically acceptable to kill or seriously hurt a bunch of otherwise healthy people in order to plow on through with vaccination that'll save a bunch of other people. Especially since there are many other vaccine types, the issue with AZ could be a tainted batch instead of a fundamental problem with AZ per se, etc.

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#184
post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thats why everyone should be free to chose to get vaccinated. It is not fair to transfer the disease risk from old/risk groups to (longterm) side-effect risks for young/healthy people

> Thats why everyone should be free to chose to get vaccinated. Isn't that the case? At least in my country, there is no obligation to take the vaccine, and even incentives (e.g. being able to attend public events sooner) are seen very critically.

There are definitely people with the view that they should be mandatory and I've personally started to encounter social pressure to get vaccinated, which I don't want to do, because I lead a low-contact hermit's life and the odds of dying from COVID which I probably won't catch if I maintain my lifestyle a few more months appears to be lower than the chance I'll die from a vaccine that I definitely get

For my age cohort the chance of death from either is infinitesimal but because of Bayes it might make sense to continue to avoid both, but if I try to explain that to my peers they might think I'm a Trump supporter, and as everyone knows, Trump supporters should be shunned from polite society (especially since the "insurrection"), so I see this as a choice between social excommunication and a questionable injection I don't want

Fun times

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#185
post #20

You do have to wonder if some of this is politically driven. Germany are losing hundreds of life's a day, while in the meantime the UK has administrated 23 million doses (not sure the ratio of those that were AstraZeneca) and not recorded a single fatality or adverse reaction and are seeing infection rates / deaths drop. I can understand caution under normal circumstances, but nothing is normal right now.

I'm not sure at this point. When it was one suspicious death, countries suspending the vaccine definitely seemed like an overreaction, and unfortunately this particular vaccine has been something of a political football and subject of a lot of noise. But as more blood-clot deaths emerge... you gotta think caution is wise. OTOH yes, we in the UK have administered a lot of this stuff, and you'd think someone would have…

> But as more blood-clot deaths emerge... you gotta think caution is wise.

Last I saw it's 30 blood-clot deaths. Given the number of people that have received the vaccine that's a tiny, tiny amount. Even if those 30 were directly linkable to the vaccine (and so far no such link has been proven) you could still make the argument that the benefits of mass vaccinations outweigh the concern.

I don't envy anyone in charge of making those choices, though.

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#186
There is an availability bias, where stories about people dying after vaccinations are amplified in fringe media, and conversely, the numbers of people who died in nursing homes of actual covid were suppressed by mainstream authorities. There's uncertainty on every part of the issue. Interpreting the general uncertainty we live with as evidence for a hidden agenda on the part of authorities is it's own self fulfilling bias, but when I read about these vaccine risks, I'm looking for a plausible model of the options.

I would (and did) jump out of planes with a parachute recreationally, but if untrustworthy people started advocating it, proposing it should be mandatory, and unstable people dressed up in double flight suits in the streets started shaming others into doing it, I would definitely not jump out of planes anymore.

If it were true that the probability of complications/death from covid are heavily skewed to people over 75 and some obvious co-morbidities, we could vaccinate everyone in that risk group in a matter of weeks. What is the case for anyone who isn't a medical worker outside the real at-risk cohort to take on the endogenous risk of a vaccine? I could make one, but I'm more interested in what more knowledgeable people have to say about it, and judging by rising popular skepticism, we're going to need one.

When covid started last year, as someone young'ish and healthy I signed up to volunteer for human challenge trials and started to organize a convalescent plasma drive, because that's what I thought being civic minded meant. I have living family members who were affected by polio before widespread vaccinations were available, and recognize the importance of vaccines on herd immunity. After a year of hall of mirrors bullshit about masks and politics, I'm struggling with the case for why a low-risk healthy person would take a vaccine with non-trivial side effect risks for a virus that is less dangerous than their normal activities, when the vulnerable people who get vaccinated (for whom the risk/reward is clearer) are no longer vulnerable.

Is there a conversation to be had on the model for this, or does it come down to "conspiracy theorists who put us at risk," vs. "normal people" and there's no point in engaging it? Is the best argument just a matter of, "we live in a society and part of that is accepting the jab?"

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#187
post #18

You do have to wonder if some of this is politically driven. Germany are losing hundreds of life's a day, while in the meantime the UK has administrated 23 million doses (not sure the ratio of those that were AstraZeneca) and not recorded a single fatality or adverse reaction and are seeing infection rates / deaths drop. I can understand caution under normal circumstances, but nothing is normal right now.

A problem with bureaucracies is that they often care deeply if people die from an action they are responsible for, but are fine if there are massive deaths due to inaction.

I’m not sure if it’s bureaucracy or human nature, as government procedures had been responsive to the pandemic, and pressure to urge inactions have been overriding the pre-pandemic determined actions.

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to these reports hosted on gov.uk there are reports of fatalities and reactions. Pfizer: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/... AstraZeneca: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/... Disclaimer from UK.gov: Part of our monitoring role includes reviewing reports of suspected side effects. Any member of the public or health professional can submit suspected side…

An explanation of the above reports, including why they can't be used to make any inference about the safety of the vaccines: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid...

Not quite sure why I'm getting downvoted for publishing those two links, but hey :)

Anyway, here's the UK's disclaimer from the Yellow Card summary link you posted.

Part of our monitoring role includes reviewing reports of suspected side effects. Any member of the public or health professional can submit suspected side effects through the Yellow Card scheme. The nature of Yellow Card reporting means that reported events are not always proven side effects. Some events may have happened anyway, regardless of vaccination. This is particularly the case when millions of people are vaccinated, and especially when most vaccines are being given to the most elderly people and people who have underlying illness.

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#189
post #59

The pandemic has made me believe we need to be greater consiquentalists in our polices. It's pretty obvious that on the whole the AstraZeneca vax will save more people than are killed from the side effects. We don't not live in a 0 risk existence.

In EU at least plenty of Pfizer and Moderna vaccines are still incoming, so there are actually alternatives to AZ. Do not forget that these vaccines are still very new, plus there's the possibility of a production issue with the AZ vaccine that affects only part of the production; I wouldn't say it's "politically-motivated" or a dumb idea to pause AZ vaccinations until one does a deeper investigation; I personally ch…

It's the trolly problem. Pull the lever and kill one person. Don't pull the lever and kill 3 people. I'm a lever puller.

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#190
post #133

Looks like this may be a bit more relevant than many of the snarky comments would suggest - the relevant German authority on this said that they have seen a unexpected increase in a specific type of blood clotting issue that usually is very rare: https://www.pei.de/DE/newsroom/hp-meldungen/2021/210315-voru...

I'm set to take the oxford d vaccine, but I could also take the pfizer vaccine.

I've had elevated blood markers for clotting during covid-19, and now I hear of this.

I'm thinking of taking 75 mg aspirin, before and after the vaccine. On the other hand, the issue is the patients have low platelet count and I understand that this is the way aspirin reduces blod clotting.

So, do these patients have low platelet count because they had blod clots, or the other way around?

Afik, in the case of COVID-19, clotting is an autoimune issue, so perhaps the clotting is not something related to the astra Zeneca vaccine, but something about the immune response itself.

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