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“User engagement” is code for “addiction”

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Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#181

Post by adjkant »

NortySpock wrote: post #105
throwaway1525 wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you give few examples "baker" products which have scaled to really large scale? I always see it as everybody starts as a baker but over time it becomes a sliding scale.

Apple hardware/software, Microsoft Windows, Intel hardware, Netflix (buffet TV shows), Amazon web store (logistics), Etsy store, Steam / GOG Games - all of these (except Netflix) are selling* either hardware or software, to you, once. Netflix is a subscription to access and stream a lot of shows, but it is "fee for subscription service", not all that different from an alarm company subscription, OnStar, or a subscrip…

I would not put Netflix in this category as there has been extensive coverage on how they try to get as much time spent as possible. Autoplaying content at the end of one show is a prime example, and how that time was optimized down to be incredibly short.

Short version: Subscription retention and time spent correlate, so they still have the "crack dealer" model incentives.

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#182

Post by roughly »

tdaltonc wrote: post #150
roughly wrote: post #81

I feel like there's basically two business models in the world - you can be a baker, in which you try to create a product that customers will want on its merits, and work to make the best possible customer experience, or you can be a crack dealer. I think a lot of people think they're bakers, but you gotta realize, the moment you start sprinkling crack in the cookies, you're not selling cookies anymore.

Baker Crack-dealer is a spectrum. But wherever you are on the spectrum, you always draw the line one step to the right.

It's not, though - that's the point. You're either a baker or you're a crack dealer - you don't get to be a baker that just sells a little crack, that's not how it works.

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#183

Post by guntars »

gnicholas wrote: post #148
misdichotomy wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Normal people are seriously outgunned here. This is quite right. PragmaticPulp's phrase "an act perpetrated by evil corporations on us helpless individuals" is a bit of rhetorical jujitsu, creating a strawman to set up a rallying cry "I believe people have agency!" You don't have to assume that individuals are "helpless", as if they are generally helpless and lacking agency, to agree that these corporations are exp…

It’s not just normal people who are outgunned — I am tech-savvy and have had an iPhone since the day they were released. I know how to modify notification settings, but there’s nothing I can do preemptively when can simply Twitter add a new category of notifications, as they did the other day. I had to go into the notification settings within the app and disable this new category, and then do it again for each of the…

Why would you have notifications turned on for Twitter? Just turn them off. The trick is to intentionally go on social media and waste time, instead of being pulled in by a notification.

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#184

Post by themacguffinman »

edmundsauto wrote: post #172
hutzlibu wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It can be manipulative and it can also be beneficial to the user" Example please, how it can be beneficial to me, to be manipulated by ads.

Ads pay for a service that allows you to video chat on a reliable and private connection with anyone in the world, for free. They also pay for google search, which has immense value to you.

They also connect consumers with products they might want. Most advertising is simply making sure people know about a product if/when they need it, no deception required.

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#185

Post by donmcronald »

gary_bernhardt wrote: post #132

Here's an anecdote about what happens when you design a product in the opposite way. I own https://www.executeprogram.com , which has interactive in-browser courses on various software development technologies. Currently they all cover languages, more or less: TypeScript, SQL, various JS topics, regexes. (Disclosure: it costs money after you finish your 16th lesson.) Almost all (maybe literally all) of our competitor…

I don't know if I'd like that. I grabbed some of Maximilian Schwarzmüller's courses off Udemy a couple years ago and, by far, my favorite thing was being able to blast through the simple concepts that I already understood and to slow down on the new stuff.

I think a recommended pace that's easy to achieve would make a nice goal, but I would balk at the idea of it being enforced if I were paying money for it.

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#186

Post by gnicholas »

guntars wrote: post #183
gnicholas wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not just normal people who are outgunned — I am tech-savvy and have had an iPhone since the day they were released. I know how to modify notification settings, but there’s nothing I can do preemptively when can simply Twitter add a new category of notifications, as they did the other day. I had to go into the notification settings within the app and disable this new category, and then do it again for each of the…

Why would you have notifications turned on for Twitter? Just turn them off. The trick is to intentionally go on social media and waste time, instead of being pulled in by a notification.

I use Twitter for my startup and want to get mention and retweet notifications. I turn off all others, and as a result I get only a handful of notifications per week.

What annoys me is new categories of notifications that Twitter turns on by default, even for users who have disabled all of these novel/generic/impersonal notification types.

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#187

Post by quantified »

tacocataco wrote: post #152
theplague42 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Literally any analyst or data science job related to growth or user engagement on social media. https://research.fb.com/category/data-science/

Thanks for the link. I feel the downvotes were unwarranted. (Not accusing you of Downvoting) Perhaps the user isn't familiar with the industry. I know I'm out of my league with most of the content posted here. https://xkcd.com/1053/

Thanks for the xkcd link!

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#188

Post by carapace »

roughly wrote: post #81

I feel like there's basically two business models in the world - you can be a baker, in which you try to create a product that customers will want on its merits, and work to make the best possible customer experience, or you can be a crack dealer. I think a lot of people think they're bakers, but you gotta realize, the moment you start sprinkling crack in the cookies, you're not selling cookies anymore.

There's a family-run bakery near my house that specializes in cheesecakes. They make the best cheesecakes I've ever tasted. They only make a certain number (~200, say, I dunno really) per day, they always sell out, then they close for the day. Every year they take a two-month vacation. That's it. That's the whole business.

Anthony Mangieri was downtown for a few years here in SF before he went back East. https://www.unapizza.com/about I got to eat there one time. Sublime. Unbelievable. All he does all day every day is pizza.

Something like that (and a good accountant) and you're set for life, eh?

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#189

Post by wahnfrieden »

pixelbro wrote: post #171
gary_bernhardt wrote: post #132

Here's an anecdote about what happens when you design a product in the opposite way. I own https://www.executeprogram.com , which has interactive in-browser courses on various software development technologies. Currently they all cover languages, more or less: TypeScript, SQL, various JS topics, regexes. (Disclosure: it costs money after you finish your 16th lesson.) Almost all (maybe literally all) of our competitor…

Uh, it's interesting that you see the design of your product as a counterexample, because to me it looks exactly like what mobile games have been doing as a mechanism for maximizing engagement. You want to stop them from playing through too much of the game's content and burning themselves out on it. So you lock them out with a timer, forcing them to come back later. Then you reward them for coming back every day. Th…

Yes... I build iOS apps for learning Japanese ( https://reader.manabi.io https://manabi.io ) and recognized how the same kind of SRS system I was building is both optimal for learning and habit-forming in the same way as game dark patterns. It felt economically and morally fortunate but I recognize it’s not an easy or light responsibility to customers to get it right.

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#190

Post by cercatrova »

pixelbro wrote: post #171
gary_bernhardt wrote: post #132

Here's an anecdote about what happens when you design a product in the opposite way. I own https://www.executeprogram.com , which has interactive in-browser courses on various software development technologies. Currently they all cover languages, more or less: TypeScript, SQL, various JS topics, regexes. (Disclosure: it costs money after you finish your 16th lesson.) Almost all (maybe literally all) of our competitor…

Uh, it's interesting that you see the design of your product as a counterexample, because to me it looks exactly like what mobile games have been doing as a mechanism for maximizing engagement. You want to stop them from playing through too much of the game's content and burning themselves out on it. So you lock them out with a timer, forcing them to come back later. Then you reward them for coming back every day. Th…

Habits can be good or bad. In this case, one would want the user to be rewarded for coming back every day to learn programming. Habit acclimation is a neutral process, just because the parent uses the same tactics as those who use them for building bad habits does not mean that those processes are bad in and of themselves.
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