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On the Instability of Bitcoin Without the Block Reward [pdf]

cs.princeton.edu

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Re: On the Instability of Bitcoin Without the Block Reward [pdf]

#181

Post by imtringued »

moralsupply wrote: post #106
steve_gh wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe we need a heavy Carbon Tax on Proof of Work cryptocurrencies. Using the energy consumption of Argentina to verify financial transactions does not fit with moving to a Net Zero economy.

Gaming uses more energy than Bitcoin. Shall we place carbon taxes on gaming too? How about a carbon tax on Gold and Silver, and on the whole of the banking system, which also consume more energy than Bitcoin? In any case, feel free to contact the Bitcoin CEO and discuss your ideas on how to implement those taxes.

Yes, carbon taxes everywhere so we can solve this stupid problem and focus on other things.

Re: On the Instability of Bitcoin Without the Block Reward [pdf]

#182

Post by imtringued »

Nextgrid wrote: post #53
elcomet wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I honestly hope that it's high enough to deter a nation state sized attacker. What's the point though? Bitcoin has no real use case apart from speculation.

Besides speculation there is a minority who does use it as an actual currency, often in countries where their domestic currency is unusable (sanctions, inflation, etc). Also, just because there isn't a use-case now doesn't mean it isn't valuable to keep a currency immune to government interference around just in case you end up having a use-case for it later.

I am dreaming of a crazy world where instead of foreign aid the US government simply enacts a bill that the largest agriculture companies have to expand into foreign markets with food shortages instead of exporting their food to them and replace the incompetent local farmers. It would be far more effective at solving inflation than a crappy cryptocurrency.

Re: On the Instability of Bitcoin Without the Block Reward [pdf]

#183

Post by WorldMaker »

dmichulke wrote: post #138
rmah wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The wealth distribution of bitcoin is even worse than the wealth distribution of society as a whole. Further, I suspect that this would be the typical state for any finite/limited asset. IMO, things like bitcoin (and gold) as a primary wealth store are how you create stratified societies with entrenched elites and banking orgs with more money/power than nation states. Not that bitcoin could ever happen dominate, but…

Can you give an example of an egalitarian currency or store of value?

"Egalitarian currency" and "store of value" are somewhat mutually opposed goals.

A stable store of value is always going to socially/psychologically encourage hoarding and other human traits that lead exactly back to inequal distributions of value ("wealth").

A truly egalitarian currency would need to focus on the velocity and acceleration (the current of the currency) curves far more than the value at rest, which likely would be an afterthought.

Re: On the Instability of Bitcoin Without the Block Reward [pdf]

#184

Post by cwkoss »

Mordisquitos wrote: post #145
rawtxapp wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Carbon tax everything, why limit yourself to cryptocurrencies?

Exactly. To be precise, carbon tax energy , so that everything that uses energy needs to factor carbon emissions in their costs. The whole point of carbon taxes is to internalise the cost of carbon emissions into everything, to put the market to work on better alternatives. Limiting carbon taxes to any particular service or product would be a market distortion and would defeat the purpose. If carbon taxes hurt crypto…

Carbon tax carbon emitting energy.

Don't tax solar panels, that would be short sighted and regressive.

Re: On the Instability of Bitcoin Without the Block Reward [pdf]

#185

Post by imtringued »

witweb wrote: post #37
elcomet wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I honestly hope that it's high enough to deter a nation state sized attacker. What's the point though? Bitcoin has no real use case apart from speculation.

So people living in countries without a stable currency due to hyperinflation don't count as a real use case? It's sometimes the only way they can secure their capital. I think that we need to think outside of our elitist western bubble more often. Not all people live in a stable democracy with (semi-)stable currencies.

What we need is a global organization that ensures that every nation will be self sufficient in regards to nutrition and only imports non essential foods for varieties sake.

That's how you solve hyperinflation. The problem isn't that the currency is bad. The problem is that the government is utter garbage and since when did Bitcoin market itself as a political tool to subvert authoritarian leadership? No, it's just another "currency" like the dollar.

Re: On the Instability of Bitcoin Without the Block Reward [pdf]

#186

Post by imtringued »

hfsp wrote: post #117
orwin wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And even if they do use BTC (they don't really, at least in Africa, i don't know about Venezuela), they do not trade using BTC but a second layer anyway.

This is either an uninformed or misleading take. It isn't necessarily "Africa" or "Americas". The heuristic is "is my local fiat shitcoin stealing my purchasing power". Counter to your claim and easily provable with a basic search Nigeria is one of, if not the leading in BTC adoption %. https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/news/nigeria-is-the-second-l... https://www.statista.com/statistics/1194735/bitcoin-online-s...

Is it the shitcoin or is it the fact that the economy itself is gone and thus your currency isn't worth anything because nobody is selling things to you?

Here is an interesting article:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/venezuelas...

Re: On the Instability of Bitcoin Without the Block Reward [pdf]

#187

Post by jki275 »

dcolkitt wrote: post #165
Paul-E wrote: post #12

One of the assumptions the authors make in this paper is that miners can turn their hardware on and off quickly, and that they will benefit financially for doing so. Mainly by paying lower electricity bills. It turns out the really big miners don't pay for electricity the same way you or I do. Big miners sign long term contracts for continuous consumption of energy, and don't save any money for turning mining hardwar…

As a tangent, I wonder if Bitcoin mining could re-ignite the nuclear power industry. Nuclear power plants involve a high upfront capital cost, then produce a long-life of fixed electricity output at near-zero marginal cost. My understanding is that one reason more plants were built in the 60s was because electricity prices were fixed by regulators. That made financial modeling easier, because investors could legibly…

Most miners are on hydro, located right next to the dams, and probably colluding with them for either zero or near zero cost. Similar advantages to nuclear I'd imagine.

Re: On the Instability of Bitcoin Without the Block Reward [pdf]

#188

Post by imtringued »

mminer237 wrote: post #153
xorcist wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or any of the other PoS coins. If you want to invest (which is a word I hesitate to use in the context of any cryptocurrency) in a PoS coin there are more mature ones. It would be interesting if someone would research why this hasn't already happened? It's not like that alternative hasn't been available for a long time now.

Bitcoin's value is not based on its technical ability or its usefulness. No one understands or care about PoW vs PoS. Its only practical worth is its name recognition driving more people to buy it as an investment. Bitcoin beat Ethereum and Bitcoin Cash and Ripple and Monero and every other coin because it was first, and people know the name "Bitcoin", and they've never heard of any altcoin.

At some point it will fail because of its technical failures though. The people buying it assume that Bitcoin as it is, is already perfect and never has to change when that is far from the truth.

Re: On the Instability of Bitcoin Without the Block Reward [pdf]

#189

Post by jki275 »

imtringued wrote: post #175
trophycase wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Financial Services are an entire industry. Lending, transactions, authorizations, contracts, accounting, risk management, asset allocation, it's a gigantic industry." Right, this is all on ethereum

I dont know much about Ethereum but the mere existence of it threatens Bitcoin's "world domination" aspirations and who knows, maybe something will come out that will threaten Ethereum.

Bitcoin and Ethereum are both legacy blockchains.

There are many contenders. XTZ and ADA are both technologically far beyond what BTC or ETH can ever be.

Re: On the Instability of Bitcoin Without the Block Reward [pdf]

#190

Post by andruby »

delaaxe wrote: post #178
mumblemumble wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The last BTC mined will be 2140, but the decay is exponential. The reward will halve in about 3 years, and it is likely to halve again 4 years after that, and so on.

But price appreciation is also exponential

That can’t stay that way, at least not in real terms (taking inflation into account)
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