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Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

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Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#181

Post by dragonwriter »

javajosh wrote: post #159
tptacek wrote: post #134

Ken White has been talking about the potential for this suit for a couple weeks now. He spends a lot of time talking about what isn't defamation --- people use defamation suits and threats thereof to chill free speech, and he's a 1st Amendment guy --- but the Dominion cases are apparently examples of very serious defamation cases. The core of defamation is (1) a false statement of purported fact that (2) causes damag…

"[Dominion will probable be] treated as a public figure." Why? I'd never heard of them before November 2020, and I imagine that is true for most people. I'd also be curious to learn more about what counts as "reckless disregard for the truth", if you're willing to share.

https://www.dmlp.org/legal-guide/proving-fault-actual-malice...

Dominion seems to be very clearly a “Limited Purpose Public Figure” in the domain in which the disputed statements apply.

Their lack of general celebrity is a good argument that they aren’t an “all purpose” public figure.

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#182

Post by dragonwriter »

hajile wrote: post #176
javajosh wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"[Dominion will probable be] treated as a public figure." Why? I'd never heard of them before November 2020, and I imagine that is true for most people. I'd also be curious to learn more about what counts as "reckless disregard for the truth", if you're willing to share.

Most people (even people who follow politics) weren’t familiar with Obama before 2007 election cycle. The Covenant Kid was thrust into the media and when he sued for defamation, at least some judges accepted the claim that he was a public figure — even though he was suing over the very thing that thrust him into the national spotlight.

> Most people (even people who follow politics) weren’t familiar with Obama before 2007 election cycle.

Obama was a public official, so the standards for public figures that aren’t public officials wouldn’t apply.

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#183

Post by dragonwriter »

mbg721 wrote: post #106
arcticfox wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What Giuliani was doing wasn't dissent, it wasn't a difference of opinion or anything remotely similar. It was straight up lying. Yes, defamation should be chilled.

Good, then prosecute him for the actual crimes he committed.

> Good, then prosecute him for the actual crimes he committed.

This is a tort that he actually committed, not a crime, but otherwise that’s what is happening. Not every violation of law is a “crime”.

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#184

Post by mbg721 »

aww_dang wrote: post #179
mbg721 wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I think you've gathered, I'm coming from the "the trust is already gone" side.

I wasn't inclined to reflexively trust gov, even before this debacle. That's neither here nor there. I try to keep my bias out of it. Otherwise, someone from the opposing spectrum will take it as an invite for a useless argument. What steps can practically be taken to restore trust for the average person, who might not be as cynical as myself?

It's not going to happen anytime soon in the US, but the thing that will win people over is a genuine common philosophy of some kind. We've spent the last 50 years doing a weird washed-out half- Christianity, and now half of us want the old Christianity-based system back, and the other half wants a tech-humanism that is anathema to the first half.

If either side is genuine about their beliefs, a first step is probably enforcing single-issue bills in Congress.

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#185

Post by javajosh »

javajosh wrote: post #159
tptacek wrote: post #134

Ken White has been talking about the potential for this suit for a couple weeks now. He spends a lot of time talking about what isn't defamation --- people use defamation suits and threats thereof to chill free speech, and he's a 1st Amendment guy --- but the Dominion cases are apparently examples of very serious defamation cases. The core of defamation is (1) a false statement of purported fact that (2) causes damag…

"[Dominion will probable be] treated as a public figure." Why? I'd never heard of them before November 2020, and I imagine that is true for most people. I'd also be curious to learn more about what counts as "reckless disregard for the truth", if you're willing to share.

On a side note, interestingly every single post I've made in the last week has been downvoted. Even this one, which is literally just asking questions. Its almost like I'm being targeted. Dang? Is something going on?

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#186

Post by dragonwriter »

mbg721 wrote: post #184
aww_dang wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wasn't inclined to reflexively trust gov, even before this debacle. That's neither here nor there. I try to keep my bias out of it. Otherwise, someone from the opposing spectrum will take it as an invite for a useless argument. What steps can practically be taken to restore trust for the average person, who might not be as cynical as myself?

It's not going to happen anytime soon in the US, but the thing that will win people over is a genuine common philosophy of some kind. We've spent the last 50 years doing a weird washed-out half- Christianity, and now half of us want the old Christianity-based system back, and the other half wants a tech-humanism that is anathema to the first half. If either side is genuine about their beliefs, a first step is probabl…

> It’s not going to happen anytime soon in the US, but the thing that will win people over is a genuine common philosophy of some kind. We’ve spent the last 50 years doing a weird washed-out half- Christianity, and now half of us want the old Christianity back

“Christianity” isn’t a unifying philosophy; even more recently than 50 years ago, the most dedicated evangelical/fundamentalist Protestant Christians were campaigning against the single largest Christian denomination in the country (Catholicism) as vigorously as against non-Christians, and many of our key religious freedom rulings were a result of Christian or Christian-adjacent groups (Jehovah’s Witnesses figure particularly prominently here) resisting impositions by more dominant Christian groups. Kennedy got much the same kind of attacks for being an (actual) Catholic as were directed at Obama for being (supposedly) a Muslim.

And if the short history in America were not enough, look at the troubled history of Christian-Christian relations in Europe and the Near East.

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#187

Post by LaMarseillaise »

yesdocs wrote: post #8

I hope whatever happens with these lawsuits it chills the baseless accusations of voter fraud used to undermine voter confidence in our democracy

Unfortunately, I think the numerous tangential and unsubstantiated comments in this very thread suggest that the strategy has been highly successful. While I imagine Dominion could win against Giuliani, he is only one person and this disinformation has been spread through many channels. I expect we will see it again.

Edit: grammar.

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#188

Post by [deleted] »

covidthrow wrote: post #93
CydeWeys wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dominion voting machines use human-readable printed ballots as a backup auditing mechanism. In all of the disputed states these paper ballots were hand counted (sometimes multiple times) and the original electronically reported results were confirmed. So how are these voting machines complete bullshit exactly? What do you think the mechanism of attack is, and do you have any sources other than just your speculation?

If I give you $100 to put in my bank account, and you print off your own receipt that my $100 made it into the account, what exactly does that prove? Now let's pretend you don't even give me that receipt, but you just keep it for your own accounting. I later find my $100 isn't in my account. But hey, you have a receipt you printed that says you put it in my account. If you're honest, this system works. If I can't tru…

[deleted]

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#189

Post by ardy42 »

adictator wrote: post #38
yesdocs wrote: post #8

I hope whatever happens with these lawsuits it chills the baseless accusations of voter fraud used to undermine voter confidence in our democracy

How would anyone know they are baseless unless a proper investigation is conducted independently? What about the thousands of sworn affidavits? Surely, ALL of them can't be lying.

> How would anyone know they are baseless unless a proper investigation is conducted independently? What about the thousands of sworn affidavits? Surely, ALL of them can't be lying.

Proper investigations were conducted, and no serious issues found. The lawsuits were laughed out of court, even by Republican judges.

Its surely possible that all those "sworn affidavits" can be wrong in some way: AFAIK, they were either bogus, irrelevant, or from people who didn't understand what they were seeing because they hadn't bothered to familiarize themselves with the vote counting process before they became election observers.

The more pertinent question is: how could anyone still believe those lawsuits could have merit at this point? The sad answer is: disinformation works.

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#190

Post by Kim_Bruning »

CydeWeys wrote: post #165
reaperducer wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one ever claimed that hand-counting is perfect. Is isn't. For example, all of the Chicago ballot boxes that famously ended up in Lake Michigan in the middle of the last century. But hand-counting works because it's virtually impossible to coordinate fraud widespread enough to actually make a difference. Whereas, if your entire voting system is computerized and all the computers are linked together, causing widespr…

Good thing hand counting can be (and is) used with the Dominion voting machines to verify the electronic result, then.

Certainly a good thing!

Do let me temper that slightly :

Some states didn't or didn't fully have a paper trail quite yet https://ballotpedia.org/Voting_methods_and_equipment_by_stat...

Also, be aware that Dominion voting systems actually acquired the old "Diebold Election Systems", who were not so secure a couple of years back. (though things may have changed by now, of course) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premier_Election_Solutions

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