My Experience at Apple • Hacker News Board

Re: My Experience at Apple

#181

Post by zepto » Fri, Jan 01, 2021, 8:22 PM UTC

I find this entirely believable.

Not because I think it’s common at Apple in particular, but because it’s common in companies of almost any size and in almost any industry.

It should be better at Apple. They do in fact lead in many areas of improving corporate behavior, but I have actually never heard of them leading in this area, and everyone I know who has worked there makes it sound little different other than the scale of what you work on and the pay, from any other corporation.

It’s one of the reasons I have never seriously thought of working for Apple myself.

I hope Tim Cook reads this and takes it seriously.

Re: My Experience at Apple

#182

Post by rantwasp » Fri, Jan 01, 2021, 8:23 PM UTC

sillysaurusx wrote: post #66

newbie578 wrote: post #22

I have to ask, why is it so hard to criticize or show Apple in a negative light on HN? If this was a post thrashing Google, it would already have over 300 upvotes, and "necessary" comments how there are already people who are "de-Googling" their life... I mean there are already skeptic comments regarding the author's intentions and experience? The fact is that out of all FAA(M)NG companies, work experience in Apple i…

Hehe. You’re not wrong. Just remember that HN is all about tribalism. The show is more important than the substance. You’ll need to fall in love with performance art if you want your points to be known. And language, for that matter. I don’t think that’s a bad thing, personally. People are allowed to hate google but not apple, and vice versa. But! You’re also dead wrong. The story is substantive enough that we’re bot…

People are about tribalism. We’re wired to work this way :(

Re: My Experience at Apple

#183

Post by zepto » Fri, Jan 01, 2021, 8:23 PM UTC

daniel_reetz wrote: post #128

opportune wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From this and a few other random posts I've seen on Blind and Hacker News, the closed/secretive nature of Apple seems to allow it to happen more frequently than at other companies.

I have worked in several highly secretive companies, including this one, and this is correct. Secrecy enables abuse.

This stuff happens in companies that aren’t secretive though. I don’t see how secrecy enables this.

Re: My Experience at Apple

#184

Post by bredren » Fri, Jan 01, 2021, 8:23 PM UTC

zcw100 wrote: post #168

bredren wrote: post #20

No way to say if this is a legit story, but I have seen this kind of thing at Intel, a subsidiary of comScore and a subsidiary of Siemens. Toxic workplaces exist, and toxic teams within divisions exist. When I saw this stuff, I was too young and inexperienced to recognize bad behavior and recognize my own power to go fish for something else. I did not have immigration issues to think about though, which adds a whole…

"I'd advise people who experience toxic workplaces or think that they are in them to consider whether they themselves are lacking in the ability to assert their own boundaries and act on those assertions when they are broken repeatedly." That's it, blame the victim.

If that is what you took from my post, you’re mistaken.

People should not be emotionally abusive. But they are. They attain positions of power.

Through reflection you may come to realize they are among people you consider friends or family.

You can’t “fix” them, but you can learn how to handle or avoid them.

Sometimes, if a person looks inward and into their past they will find a pattern of people who have taken advantage of them.

If that’s the case there may be work to do, like:

- confront these past abuses

- recognize those that are ongoing and how to navigate them

- build and practice skills in recognizing and dealing with new toxic people going forward

Life is hard and we get taught things unevenly.

It is not a wrong to be ignorant of an important life skill.

And even when you have read all of the evidence and logic needed to recognize and change your circumstances, some wait far too long, or never do.

I do not blame folks in these positions, my heart goes out to them. Because I have been there.

edit:

I did not expect this chain to get the attention it did. And I had to look up victim blaming, because it sounds awful and I needed to understand if I got this wrong. I make mistakes.

Here's the wikipedia article on Victim Blaming for those who want to learn more about what this phrase means: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victim_blaming

I'm not going to try and further explain myself. If folks do not like this feedback, they may leave it. I will accept that some of my advice may be problematic. I'm not a therapist and I crafted these posts in the same speed and style I comment on technology platforms.

This is honestly not a subject I want to go into greater detail about today. I hope the empathy behind my words shows through and wish anyone in any toxic situation at home or work the best.

Re: My Experience at Apple

#185

Post by jariel » Fri, Jan 01, 2021, 8:25 PM UTC

bredren wrote: post #20

No way to say if this is a legit story, but I have seen this kind of thing at Intel, a subsidiary of comScore and a subsidiary of Siemens. Toxic workplaces exist, and toxic teams within divisions exist. When I saw this stuff, I was too young and inexperienced to recognize bad behavior and recognize my own power to go fish for something else. I did not have immigration issues to think about though, which adds a whole…

"I'd advise people who experience toxic workplaces or think that they are in them to consider whether they themselves are lacking in the ability to assert their own boundaries and act on those assertions when they are broken repeatedly."

This is terrible advice.

It's not a matter of 'character' that people cannot act, it's a matter of power.

The entire situation is due to a messed up power dynamic.

If the staffer was not deathly afraid they may have been able to do all sorts of things otherwise not possible.

Re: My Experience at Apple

#186

Post by PragmaticPulp » Fri, Jan 01, 2021, 8:26 PM UTC

exApple-anon wrote: post #30

exApple-anon wrote: post #9

Posting anonymously for obvious reasons. Unlike others, I actually find this story fairly believable. When I first joined Apple, straight out of college - a good program, top three in the country - I was abused similarly. I joined a team that was on a project behind schedule. Our manager was a brusque, no-nonsense sort of dude. But he clearly had anger problems. On the team were 2 senior engineers, me, and a junior e…

Some extra tidbits that didn't make it in because the edit timer ran out: - Despite the big release and herculean efforts, both of us were paid a fraction of our target bonus. This was the day I decided to move jobs. - I eventually grew some balls and told Apple to (a) pay me 2.5x during overtime (b) hire SREs for this critical service, or (c) go fuck themselves. They chose (c), which worked alright because our servi…

I can empathize with your story. I once landed what I thought would be my dream job at my dream company. I quickly discovered that the position was open because all of the previous team had quit due to the extreme toxicity.

> The primary lesson I learnt is that it doesn't matter if you work hard

Be careful about getting jaded and cynical. This is far from a universal truth in the tech industry. I've hired a few ex-FAANG who had burned out and become cynical on work altogether. We had to let them go because their negativity was dragging everyone down.

A similar thing can happen to people who go through difficult divorces. If they let themselves become cynical, they start believing that marriage is a doomed institution and that all members of their ex-spouse's gender are equally terrible people and such. It can become very counterproductive to moving on.

Re: My Experience at Apple

#187

Post by jariel » Fri, Jan 01, 2021, 8:27 PM UTC

bredren wrote: post #184

zcw100 wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I'd advise people who experience toxic workplaces or think that they are in them to consider whether they themselves are lacking in the ability to assert their own boundaries and act on those assertions when they are broken repeatedly." That's it, blame the victim.

If that is what you took from my post, you’re mistaken. People should not be emotionally abusive. But they are. They attain positions of power. Through reflection you may come to realize they are among people you consider friends or family. You can’t “fix” them, but you can learn how to handle or avoid them. Sometimes, if a person looks inward and into their past they will find a pattern of people who have taken adva…

Well you did specifically say 'assert their own boundaries'.

That's victim blaming to the extent there is nothing someone can do to assert themselves other than basically leaving.

Re: My Experience at Apple

#188

Post by dylan604 » Fri, Jan 01, 2021, 8:28 PM UTC

exApple-anon wrote: post #30

exApple-anon wrote: post #9

Posting anonymously for obvious reasons. Unlike others, I actually find this story fairly believable. When I first joined Apple, straight out of college - a good program, top three in the country - I was abused similarly. I joined a team that was on a project behind schedule. Our manager was a brusque, no-nonsense sort of dude. But he clearly had anger problems. On the team were 2 senior engineers, me, and a junior e…

Some extra tidbits that didn't make it in because the edit timer ran out: - Despite the big release and herculean efforts, both of us were paid a fraction of our target bonus. This was the day I decided to move jobs. - I eventually grew some balls and told Apple to (a) pay me 2.5x during overtime (b) hire SREs for this critical service, or (c) go fuck themselves. They chose (c), which worked alright because our servi…

If you're the type of person that can only "work hard" due to being driven by needing the project to be completed and as best as it could possibly be, then maybe working for MegaCorp is not the best idea. Seems to be you'd be much better suited for a start-up (hopefully with prospects of major funding).

If you're the type that doesn't want to work very hard and just there for a paycheck, then you are probably more suited for working at MegaCorp.

Getting these out of wack makes for unhappy working conditions.

Re: My Experience at Apple

#189

Post by anonymousiam » Fri, Jan 01, 2021, 8:29 PM UTC

Apple is a big company with a great reputation, but there are bad apples in every bunch.

My biggest takeaway from this article is that the author should take this advice: Before you accept a position, find out what project you will be working on, and get to know the people who you will be working with. If you are being hired to replace someone who left, try to find out why they left (or were fired).

I have not done much moving around in my (long) career, but I have many friends who have. There are plenty of jobs out there, but many of them are tainted by toxic people or cultures. During your interview process, find out what you can. If you come away with any concerns, trust your feelings. If uncertain, raise your concerns and seek more information before you accept an offer. You will either come away with more concerns, or you will find out that your concerns were unfounded.

Any big company hiring a new PhD grad should do their best to make the new employee feel welcome as part of the team. It seems that there were plenty of warning signs in this case, but as this was the author's first work experience, she either missed them or did not recognize their significance.

It's a shame that the visa process and ITAR rules compounded the problems described.

I'm a bit confused about the end of this article where she writes; "If Apple refuse to take actions, I will interview with major media outlets describing the experience in more details and I will release a list of all individuals involved from senior management to the HR director and all the evidence as public record."

She no longer works for Apple, and probably doesn't want to ever work there again, so why the threat, and why the ultimatum? Why not just go public with all of the names and documentation? They already did their best to damage her reputation and career. Why should she hold back?

Re: My Experience at Apple

#190

Post by asveikau » Fri, Jan 01, 2021, 8:29 PM UTC

zcw100 wrote: post #161

andrewmcwatters wrote: post #80

For anyone experiencing workplace harassment, this article is a great example of what not to do. Instead, document everything happening to you with evidence, speak with HR about incidents as they arise, and if they don't take action, seek legal counsel. Doing anything else will paint you in a bad light.

You've clearly never had this happen to you. Go ahead, document everything, it's not going to matter. That's not how this works. If you do that they'll either say, "Ok, I see what you've got there. But that's not what we're here to discuss. We're here to discuss your negative attitude" or they can look at your documentation and say, "So what were you charging the time you were doing all this documentation to?", or, "…

> First, HR is not your friend. They're there to protect the company.

This is absolutely correct.

However the next sentence reveals a curious mis-alignment in our culture at large:

> Perhaps sometimes your interests align with the company but that's just an accident.

It is absolutely in the interest of the company to not treat people like shit, from multiple vantage points ranging from selfishly not wanting to be embarrassed by their own misconduct, to more altruistic moral obligation. If the company does not believe that, they are mistaken and foolish, prioritizing perceived short term gain over the right thing to do. Unfortunately, this particular brand of short-sightedness is the norm and our cultural expectation.