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The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

taibbi.substack.com

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Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#181
post #150

This is all the result of confusing 1st amendment rights with the right to access the audience that gathers at a particular URL. What Taibbi is asking for is that the guy who tells you that drinking rat poison is good for you should be allowed an audience and that even putting a warning alongside the video would be an infringement on his rights. Looking at the comments here I have to conclude that HN is no longer on…

I must say though that there is a difference between putting a disclaimer next to a video to provide facts/context vs outright banning it from being posted.

Yes, it's not directly an issue of the first amendment, but it's still a topic with discussing since sites like YouTube, Twitter, and Facebook constitute a lot of where discourse takes place these days.

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#183

This might seem extreme, but I think we should allow people to make up their own minds about what is truth and what is not. They are very clear cases for censorship (direct threats of violence for example) but Questioning the outcome of an election should not be one of them. Somehow we’ve allowed corporations to be the arbiters of truth in this nation, enter control the reins of communication.

Allowing people to make up their own minds doesn't mean you have to provide a platform for views you don't share.

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#184
post #150

This is all the result of confusing 1st amendment rights with the right to access the audience that gathers at a particular URL. What Taibbi is asking for is that the guy who tells you that drinking rat poison is good for you should be allowed an audience and that even putting a warning alongside the video would be an infringement on his rights. Looking at the comments here I have to conclude that HN is no longer on…

I remember the days on forums when people screaming "YOU'RE VIOLATING THE FIRST AMENDMENT!!!11" after the admin banned them were treated as the laughable jokes they were. Now there are supposedly serious political thinkers subscribing to this same idea: that the Constitution forces private parties to do business with you against their will. It's a serious lack of civic knowledge.

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#185
post #150

This is all the result of confusing 1st amendment rights with the right to access the audience that gathers at a particular URL. What Taibbi is asking for is that the guy who tells you that drinking rat poison is good for you should be allowed an audience and that even putting a warning alongside the video would be an infringement on his rights. Looking at the comments here I have to conclude that HN is no longer on…

> This is all the result of confusing 1st amendment rights with the right to access the audience that gathers at a particular URL.

No one is confused. The article mentions neither the First Amendment nor the Constitution. It only calls the matter "un-American." This phrase is clearly a value statement, not some neutral and dispassionate assessment.

The line you draw to separate the government from the private sector is quite useful in other contexts, but does not affect the matter before us today. After all, in a democracy (which the Constitution aspires to be) the ideal of free speech itself must proceed from shared cultural values; if those values change enough, we might also expect the First Amendment to be repealed anyway.

Of course YouTube of course is not required to represent these purportedly-American values; just as surely, it may be criticized as "un-American" by those promulgating such values. A much more interesting argument would assess the extent to which the values in question are, in fact, American, whether YouTube's choices are more representative (surely there's a case for this) or simply more desirable (I note many here agree with them) -- and whether American (or "American") values can coexist with these YouTube values.

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#186
Noam Chomsky on Anti-Americanism: "In Soviet Union, people calling out crimes of the state against it's own people were called anti-russian: Sakharov, Solzhanitsin. That's a sign of totalitarianism. America is the only other country that does that. Imagine someone calling someone anti-italian -- they would be laughed at." (paraphrasing)

Every time I hear "anti-American", I'm reminded of this

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnVVxN3FPEg

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#187
post #150

This is all the result of confusing 1st amendment rights with the right to access the audience that gathers at a particular URL. What Taibbi is asking for is that the guy who tells you that drinking rat poison is good for you should be allowed an audience and that even putting a warning alongside the video would be an infringement on his rights. Looking at the comments here I have to conclude that HN is no longer on…

Yes. I'm heartened to see that someone in this thread understands what rights the First Amendment actually guarantees.

People constantly conflate "freedom of speech" with the protection granted by the first amendment.

That's right up to and including Randal Munroe, who said "The right to free speech means the government can't arrest you for what you say"

That's not freedom of speech, that's the first amendment protections of freedom of speech... and it doesn't even adequately describe the protections. There are other things the government isn't allowed to do besides arrest you. They can't force you to say something, either. They can't prohibit certain opinions from being expressed in government owned or regulated channels.

And freedom of speech can be infringed on or limited by other entities than the government.

A better description would be "principle that supports the freedom of an individual or a community to articulate their opinions and ideas without fear of retaliation, censorship, or sanction." This means that if you're forced into silence by threat of retaliation from, say, a religious sect or political group in your area, it's still infringing on your freedom of speech even if they aren't part of the government.

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#188
Though I too am surprised that YouTube is setting such a precedent for fine-grained moderation, we cannot pretend as if this is an "infringement of our rights." YouTube is running a for-profit website, you don't have the "right" to a spot on their platform.

YouTube has made the careful calculation that the people who are turned off by this ban are far outweighed by public support, and will reduce their contribution to toxic behavior and instability in the country.

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#189
post #150

This is all the result of confusing 1st amendment rights with the right to access the audience that gathers at a particular URL. What Taibbi is asking for is that the guy who tells you that drinking rat poison is good for you should be allowed an audience and that even putting a warning alongside the video would be an infringement on his rights. Looking at the comments here I have to conclude that HN is no longer on…

Justice Scalia, an originalist conservative wrote that none of our Constitutional rights are unlimited.

He should be allowed to speak.

No one is obliged to listen.

Free agency supersedes speech. How is expecting anyone else to sit still any less fascist?

Common sense changes in time. It was perfectly common sense 13 colonies belonged to England.

It was perfectly common sense God created reality.

John Stuart Mill covered this in his writing about town drunks; cannot stop biology.

Emit whatever syntax sure. Being owed others to bend their agency to listen or act in accordance with the speech is nonsense.

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#190

I have a few past comments on HN about how electronic voting was a recipe for civil unrest for the precise reasons that are playing out right now and that Taibbi gives examples of. Google, Facebook and Apple are becoming less American companies as they are a kind of post-national versions of the British East India Company where they operate mainly as the arms of an empire, and instead of opium, they traffic in attent…

I have a few past comments pointing out that whether electronic voting is seen as a valid reason to distrust American election results by the mainstream depends entirely on which party has the presidency. The most vivid demonstration of this was Wired running two articles within months of each other, one before Trump won insisting that rigging an election that way was impossible and there were endless safeguards protecting against it, and one after he won claiming there were no safeguard and electronic voting machine hacks could easily rig an election, each backed by copious expert opinions, despite no new evidence appearing between the two. More subtly, remember how before Trump the last time electronic voting security was a major mainstream issue with Defcon events etc was when Bush won in 2004, it suddenly returned to prominence with Trump's 2016 victory, and now it looks like it's becoming a non-issue again.
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