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Apple’s “Extended Dynamic Range” Brings HDR to Non-HDR Displays

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Re: Apple’s “Extended Dynamic Range” Brings HDR to Non-HDR Displays

#181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Windows color management is pretty much just a folder where ICC files go to die. Everything needs to be done by the application. Nothing is color managed by default. This alone makes HDR displays (which aren't sRGB in HDR mode) less than worthless on Windows. The situation is identical on Linux, which copied the Windows approach.

Is there a way to get Windows to behave better? I was sorely disappointed by how things look in HDR mode, especially the fact that gamut seems to be abysmal compared to the same display in SDR mode, not even considering the terrible black level artifacting :/

I think Windows provides all the tools necessary for accurate color management, it's just that not everyone has done the necessary bookkeeping for it to work.

The underlying problem is that APIs describe colors in the display colorspace. #ffffff means "send full power to the red, green, and blue subpixels"[1], without describing what color the red, green, and blue subpixels are. That was not a major problem until relatively recently; every display used the same primary colors, so there was no need to specify what colorspace you were sending values to the OS in. But, then it became cheap and easy to use better primaries ("wide gamut"), and we had a problem. Every color written down in a file suddenly became meaningless; an extra piece of information would be required to turn that (r, g, b) tuple into a display color. So, everyone kind of did their own thing! Image formats long had a way to tag the pixel data with a colorspace, so images with tags basically work everywhere. Applications can read that and tell the OS that colors are in a certain color space, and it can map that to your display. Most applications do that; if you have a wide-gamut display and take an AdobeRGB-space image off your digital camera, the colors will be better than if you looked at it on an sRGB display. Even web browsers handle this fine; if they are presented with an image with a colorspace tag, they'll make sure your monitor displays the right colors.

The problem is sources of color data that don't have a tag. CSS is a big offender. CSS doesn't specify the colorspace of colors, so typically browsers will just send whatever is in there directly to the display. That means if you're a web designer and you pick #ff0000 on your sRGB display, people using a wide-gamut display will see a much more vibrant shade of red, and everything will look off. In fact, pretty much everyone using a wide-gamut display will see wrong colors everywhere because of this; I have one, and I just forced into sRGB mode because it's so broken. (On the other hand, a lot of people like more vibrant colors, so they think it's a good thing that they get artificial vibrance enhancement on everything they view. And are then disappointed when an application handles colors correctly, and what they see on their monitor are the same boring colors their digital camera saw out in the field.)

But, the problem is not Windows, the problem is applications and specs those applications use. Authors of specs don't want to say "sorry, there is no way you can ever use colors outside of sRGB without some new syntax", so they just break colors completely for everyone. That's why things look terrible on monitors that aren't sRGB; the code was built with the assumption that monitors will always be sRGB. Get rid of that assumption and everything will look correct!

There are also plenty of images out there that don't include color space tags, so it's undefined as to what colors they're actually trying to display. Some software assumes sRGB. Some software assumes the display colorspace. It's inconsistent. (I used to produce drawings in Adobe RGB and upload them to Pixiv, and their algorithm totally gets colorspaces wrong. It will serve your verbatim file to some users, but serve a version of the file to other users with the color tag removed, so that there is no possible way the viewer can see the colors you intended. I gave up on wide gamut and restricted myself to sRGB, because the Internet sucks.)

[1] It gets more complicated for shades of grey, involving gamma correction. #7f7f7f doesn't mean "send half as much electrical power to each subpixel", but rather maps to an arbitrary power level. The idea is to use the bits of the color most efficiently for human viewers; it's easy to tell "0 power" from "0.01% power". (You'll see this in practice when you write some code to control an LED from a microcontroller; if you just use the color as a PWM duty cycle, your images won't be the right colors on the display you just made. Of course, many addressable RGB LEDs do the gamma correction internally, so your naive approach of copying the image pixel values to the addressable LED will actually work. I learned this the hard way when I got addressable LED panels from two separate batches, and the old batch did gamma correction and the new batch didn't. I didn't realize it was gamma at play, so built an apparatus to measure the full colorspace of the LEDs with a spectrophotometer (https://github.com/jrockway/apacal). When I plotted the results, I immediately realized one was linear and the other was gamma-corrected... which meant all the code I wrote to build a 3D LUT for the LEDs was pointless; some simple multiplication was all I needed to make the LEDs look the same. But I digress...)

Re: Apple’s “Extended Dynamic Range” Brings HDR to Non-HDR Displays

#182
post #6

> This EDR display philosophy is so important to Apple that they are willing to spend battery life on it. When you map “white” down to gray, you have to drive the LED backlight brighter for the same perceived screen brightness, using more power. Apple has your laptop doing this all the time, on the off chance that some HDR pixels come along to occupy that headroom. This is a bit misleading. The backlight isn’t at a h…

>When you open an HDR video you can see the highlights getting brighter as the backlight gets pushed.

but what about blacks? If you have a dark scene with bright highlights (eg. campfire at night), does the black parts of the scene get blown out because backlight bleed?

Re: Apple’s “Extended Dynamic Range” Brings HDR to Non-HDR Displays

#183
post #23
post #21

Did Apple really remap white with macOS Catalina on Macbook Pros, and no one noticed? For some reason, I find that hard to believe. But it also makes me believe in the vertical integration powers of Apple: just think about this trickery on Windows!

No need to "think" about this on Windows - Windows calls this "Windows HD Color" and it's right there in settings as well. For awhile now. (If HDR display is connected, that option is replaced with a HDR on/off switch.)

What are the requirements for it? The section is there but I can't see the toggle, on both SDR screens.

Re: Apple’s “Extended Dynamic Range” Brings HDR to Non-HDR Displays

#184

Wow, that's crazy, it actually works -- just tried out the sample videos in QuickTime on my 2016 13" MBP (P3 gamut, running Big Sur) and confirmed working. Basically: if I set my display to ~75% brightness and open the video, the whites in the video are 100% brightness, way brighter than #FFF interface white on the rest of my screen. But if I increase my display brightness to 100%, the whites in the video are the sam…

So is this the reason why they removed the glowing apple on newer macbooks? Since it was powered by the backlight, it'd give that trick away real quick.

They removed it because the screens were getting too thin, and in bright conditions you could start to see through it - leaving a brighter blob in the middle.

Re: Apple’s “Extended Dynamic Range” Brings HDR to Non-HDR Displays

#185

Wow, that's crazy, it actually works -- just tried out the sample videos in QuickTime on my 2016 13" MBP (P3 gamut, running Big Sur) and confirmed working. Basically: if I set my display to ~75% brightness and open the video, the whites in the video are 100% brightness, way brighter than #FFF interface white on the rest of my screen. But if I increase my display brightness to 100%, the whites in the video are the sam…

I have a Dell UP2414Q, which is a wide-gamut 4K monitor with a relatively high 375 nits peak brightness and 10-bit input.

It's not technically HDR, but if I view HDR videos with it in SDR mode with the brightness turned up to maximum, there is definitely a bit of an "HDR effect", similar to what Apple has achieved.

However, under Windows, without support from the operating system, this doesn't really work. The colours are shifted and the brightness of the content is way too low.

Microsoft could add something similar, but this is a company that thinks that colour is a feature in the sense of:

    Colour: Yes.
We're approaching 2021 rapidly. I suspect we'll have to wait to 2030 before Microsoft gets its act together and copies even half of what Apple has in their display technology now.

Re: Apple’s “Extended Dynamic Range” Brings HDR to Non-HDR Displays

#186
post #85

It seems to me that Microsoft really makes no effort to improve subtle aspects of Windows and hardware integration. In fact, their OS is in such shambles and is a disoriented mess with respect to UI consistency. They introduced Vista, Metro, and now Fluent. Yet there's almost no coherence and the UI is now a mish-mash of XP, Metro, and Fluent era elements. By the time they announce their next UI, you can bet you'll n…

I can now record a 4K Dolby Vision HDR video with my phone and send it to my parents in a text message and it'll display flawlessly.

Windows struggles to correctly display Adobe RGB (wide gamut but not HDR) JPG images I've downloaded in 1999, now over 21 years ago and counting.

They'll get there... eventually. Maybe next decade, by which I mean 2030, not 2021.

Re: Apple’s “Extended Dynamic Range” Brings HDR to Non-HDR Displays

#187
wow. no one is calling this the hoax it is. it’s reducing contrast on the SDR so that the HDR content is subjectively brighter. i mean it’s fine and all, but you’re not seeing HDR on a non HDR screen. you wouldn’t be able to use it for color grading.

Re: Apple’s “Extended Dynamic Range” Brings HDR to Non-HDR Displays

#188
The author is rightly excited about HDR, but could be slightly overstating its effect in some examples.

> But at key parts of the story, certain colors eek outside of that self-imposed SDR container, to great effect. In a very emotional scene, brilliant pinks and purples explode off the screen — colors that not only had been absent from the film before that moment, but seemed altogether outside the spectrum of the story’s palette. Such a moment would not be possible without HDR.

I think the author knows that this is a special case of the effect where you limit color palette to some range of colors for a duration of the film and then exceed that range in places—no HDR in particular fundamentally needed to make this possible.

True, HDR can give a greater effect in absolute colorimetric terms when full palette is revealed, but the perceived magnitude depends on how restricted the original palette was prior to the reveal, and how masterfully the effect is used in general.

Re: Apple’s “Extended Dynamic Range” Brings HDR to Non-HDR Displays

#189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It seems to me that Microsoft really makes no effort to improve subtle aspects of Windows and hardware integration. Latest Windows 10 iteration is by far the snappiest OS I've used in a long time since it uses GPU acceleration for the desktop window manager. You can check this in task manager. The icing on the cake, if you gave a laptop with 2 GPUS(Optimus) is when you can run a demanding 3D app like a game in windo…

What part of backward compatibility to run legacy software prevents UI uniformity?

One issue that is very visible is the Control Panel versus the new Settings app.

A key feature of Control Panel was that it was "pluggable": vendors could add their own items, and often did. These are ordinary Win32 apps written to match the style of the era. Worse, some system control panel items have plugins in turn. E.g.: drivers can define extra "tabs", network cards have protocol-specific popup windows, etc...

There is just no way to update the look & feel of these to match the new Settings app style, most of the code is third party and ships as binary blobs.

The Microsoft Management Console (MMC), used mostly for Administrative Tools and server consoles has a similar problem.

Combined, these two make up the majority of the OS GUI!

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