Ethical AI researcher Timnit Gebru fired from Google • Hacker News Board

Re: Ethical AI researcher Timnit Gebru fired from Google

#181

Post by PeterStuer » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 5:06 PM UTC

whoknew1122 wrote: post #136

PeterStuer wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are mailing lists in Google gender segregated?

It's pretty common in large corporations to have 'affinity groups', which discuss topics that affect the group. I don't work at Google; I work at Amazon. I can only speak about my experience, but it's likely the same at Google. You don't have to be a part of an affinity group to be a member of the mailing list (that's where the ..and Allies portion comes into play). The 'Google Brain Women and Allies' mailing list is…

Must be a US specific thing as I do not see this in EU corporations. I assume there is also a 'Google Brain Men and Allies'? Why not just a 'Google Brain and Allies'? Or does that also exist?

Re: Ethical AI researcher Timnit Gebru fired from Google

#182

Post by SpicyLemonZest » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 5:14 PM UTC

fhrow4484 wrote: post #167

telltruth wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my opinion, she is being very unfair to a lot of her colleagues by not telling the whole truth and at the same time making very serious accusations. She sent email to large group of employees which violated some standards expected from a manager by Google. She is giving all the information except for what exactly she did. It's ironic that she is in "ethics business" but at the same time not realizing that it's une…

> but at the same time not realizing that it's unethical to withhold what she did Have you considered that she has to remain vague due to the potential litigation coming down the road? In fact didn't she leave some tweets hinting at that ? ("Everything I say will be used against me ..." ?)

I can't imagine a reason that she'd be free to say Google fired her because of her demands, free to post the termination email, but not free to say what her demands were.

Re: Ethical AI researcher Timnit Gebru fired from Google

#183

Post by renewiltord » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 5:15 PM UTC

FreekNortier wrote: post #105

Off topic but I thought Timnit was a male name.

Unfamiliar with a culture, it is easy to make these mistakes. I thought Taylor, Blake, Charlie, and Hayden were male names. Apparently they're practically unisex in their use.

Re: Ethical AI researcher Timnit Gebru fired from Google

#184

Post by berdario » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 5:25 PM UTC

ramblerman wrote: post #102

She just retweeted: "They (tech companies) stay coming after black women." https://twitter.com/chenaichair/status/1334384579596197889 The casualness to make this now about race/gender as well when that wasn't even her inital argument. I can't imagine working in this kind of environment. It must be exhausting, always having to tread on eggshells or end up on a twitter firing squad. Not being able to argue points, with…

[Redacted, since I don't want to fuel speculation]

It always was (also) about race/gender!

That said, I don't know Timnit, and I don't know her specific circumstances... I believe that Google is full of people who wants to solve these problems, but somehow leadership fails to capitalize on that. It might only be a few bad apples in the leadership, but each one wields a huge amount of power (hiring and firing people)...

Re: Ethical AI researcher Timnit Gebru fired from Google

#185

Post by whimsicalism » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 5:31 PM UTC

visarga wrote: post #148

ramblerman wrote: post #102

She just retweeted: "They (tech companies) stay coming after black women." https://twitter.com/chenaichair/status/1334384579596197889 The casualness to make this now about race/gender as well when that wasn't even her inital argument. I can't imagine working in this kind of environment. It must be exhausting, always having to tread on eggshells or end up on a twitter firing squad. Not being able to argue points, with…

I remember reading on her twitter around the Yann LeCun scandal time, she acknowledged her privilege while calling Yann on his. I didn't like how a man's output was seen as the result of privilege instead of hard work.

Why is it an either/or?

I don't see how people can deny that people take you more seriously on tech stuff if you're a man. It's pretty obvious to me, honestly.

Equally obvious, you're not going to become a top AI researcher without being immensely talented.

Re: Ethical AI researcher Timnit Gebru fired from Google

#186

Post by SpicyLemonZest » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 5:34 PM UTC

berdario wrote: post #184

ramblerman wrote: post #102

She just retweeted: "They (tech companies) stay coming after black women." https://twitter.com/chenaichair/status/1334384579596197889 The casualness to make this now about race/gender as well when that wasn't even her inital argument. I can't imagine working in this kind of environment. It must be exhausting, always having to tread on eggshells or end up on a twitter firing squad. Not being able to argue points, with…

[Redacted, since I don't want to fuel speculation] It always was (also) about race/gender! That said, I don't know Timnit, and I don't know her specific circumstances... I believe that Google is full of people who wants to solve these problems, but somehow leadership fails to capitalize on that. It might only be a few bad apples in the leadership, but each one wields a huge amount of power (hiring and firing people).…

I mean, I don't know what "dared" has to do with it. It's unfortunate that we're working off incomplete information here, but that's not our fault - unless there's a recent leak I haven't seen, nobody's made the email available to read.

Re: Ethical AI researcher Timnit Gebru fired from Google

#187

Post by jldugger » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 5:36 PM UTC

mam2 wrote: post #114

square_usual wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not "reasonable" to assume "she picked a fight". It's not "reasonable" to fire someone for "picking a fight", whatever that is. It's awful how people are willing to be so charitable to Google here after doing the exact opposite in Damore's case.

At least Google was consistent: it fired both people who were causing too much trouble. (BTW This is actually the fun part of the Damore story: the guy think he is smart by explaining how "evolution" makes gender different but misses the ABSOLUTE main point of evolution which is that "to survive to an environement you must fit in it". He didn't fit in the google environement, he got fired.)

He's just seeking a different niche :troll:

Re: Ethical AI researcher Timnit Gebru fired from Google

#188

Post by _iyig » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 5:36 PM UTC

drewrv wrote: post #172

GhostofDamore wrote: post #170

What will those rooting for Google to fire James Damore have to say now? I bet there is a significant overlap of those supporting her now with those rooting for Damore's firing. And Damore didn't make any demand, just a memo. I see many support her (from a justified? knee jerk reaction?) that being fired from a corporation for questioning it's bottom line is due to the power dynamics. The support to Timnit Gebru (pro…

Damore was an engineer whose continued employment would open the company up to a risk of lawsuit. Gebru was an ethicist who was willing to resign over some deep concerns. Presumably ethical concerns. We don't know much more about Gebru's situation, but they're different enough that it's not a useful comparison.

Damore kept his memo internal and did not circulate it widely. (It was leaked to the public in a calculated attempt to pressure Google into firing Damore.)

As recently as last week, while she was still a Google employee, Gebru publicly accused her “privileged White men” bosses of racial bias:

>Nothing like a bunch of privileged White men trying to squash research by marginalized communities for marginalized communities by ordering them to STOP with ZERO conversation. The amount of disrespect is incredible. Every time I think about it my blood starts boiling again.

https://mobile.twitter.com/timnitGebru/status/13317576299961...

>But they are doing exactly the job of squashing marginalized people's voices which is their job. I at least hope no one tries to talk DEI and other things

https://mobile.twitter.com/timnitGebru/status/13317729006936...

“Opinions my own” in her Twitter bio or not, as a manager, she should know better than to publicly accuse coworkers of bias against members of a protected class, particularly if she’s unwilling to make those same accusations in court. Public statements like that can lead to serious legal consequences for the company, not to mention repetutational damage for the accused, and should not be made lightly or without evidence.

Re: Ethical AI researcher Timnit Gebru fired from Google

#189

Post by ramblerman » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 5:37 PM UTC

berdario wrote: post #184

ramblerman wrote: post #102

She just retweeted: "They (tech companies) stay coming after black women." https://twitter.com/chenaichair/status/1334384579596197889 The casualness to make this now about race/gender as well when that wasn't even her inital argument. I can't imagine working in this kind of environment. It must be exhausting, always having to tread on eggshells or end up on a twitter firing squad. Not being able to argue points, with…

[Redacted, since I don't want to fuel speculation] It always was (also) about race/gender! That said, I don't know Timnit, and I don't know her specific circumstances... I believe that Google is full of people who wants to solve these problems, but somehow leadership fails to capitalize on that. It might only be a few bad apples in the leadership, but each one wields a huge amount of power (hiring and firing people).…

> diversity OKRs

These really exist? How do you know when you've reached perfect diversity? I'm honestly curious.

Is it based on population distributions? What would be an example diversity OKR

Re: Ethical AI researcher Timnit Gebru fired from Google

#190

Post by whoknew1122 » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 5:37 PM UTC

PeterStuer wrote: post #181

whoknew1122 wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's pretty common in large corporations to have 'affinity groups', which discuss topics that affect the group. I don't work at Google; I work at Amazon. I can only speak about my experience, but it's likely the same at Google. You don't have to be a part of an affinity group to be a member of the mailing list (that's where the ..and Allies portion comes into play). The 'Google Brain Women and Allies' mailing list is…

Must be a US specific thing as I do not see this in EU corporations. I assume there is also a 'Google Brain Men and Allies'? Why not just a 'Google Brain and Allies'? Or does that also exist?

I would assume that there isn't a 'Google Brain Men and Allies' affinity group. "Google Brain" does likely have its own general distro where standard work-related topics are discussed.

At the hazard of becoming 'political' and triggering people, affinity groups are typically created for groups that have traditionally been underserved, marginalized, or have special considerations.

As a cis male, I don't really see the need for a 'Google Brain Men and Allies' distro list because the issues that men face in the workplace are generally the same issues everyone faces. Women (and nonbinary people) can be confronted with issues that men simply aren't.

---

At Amazon, there are groups for Black employees, Latinx employees, LGBTQA+ employees, transgender employees, women, disabled employees, etc.

Sometimes these groups talk about work; but sometimes they talk about just life things. For example, often cisgendered employees will have children that come out as trans. So they'll reach out to the transgender community for help and support as to how to be the best advocate for their child.

Or, as a personal example, I moved to a new city to take the job at Amazon. I was looking for a therapist, and it was important that the therapist be supportive of LGBTQA+ issues and ethical non-monogamy. So I reached out to the LGBTQA+ group for therapist recommendations.