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Little Things That Made Amiga Great

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Re: Little Things That Made Amiga Great

#181
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what ideas are actually new, introduced by Linux crowd, instead of copied from either older UNIXes or mainframes?

Did you read my comment? There are no "new" ideas in computing. Everything has already been invented in the 1960's. It's the finesse of execution that matters, not ideas.

I did and you are wrong, there are plenty of ideas to bring to the market, when one doesn't constrain themselves to copy mainframes and big iron UNIXes, and catching up with whatever Apple, Google and Microsoft do on UI/UX.

Re: Little Things That Made Amiga Great

#182
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Looks like you missed the whole systemd and cgroups thing. The two are huge and novel developments in OS design, and much more significant than the GUI flimflam you pine for. (Yeah, Linux is a server OS, not news.)

The older I get, the more our devotion to the CLI feels like gatekeeping.

> The older I get, the more our devotion to the CLI feels like gatekeeping.

Nah... you can't take one of the handful of major styles of interaction with computing devices and diminish adherence to that style as just 'gatekeeping'. There are moments where the strengths of GUI interaction is useful (discovery of options, selection of individual objects, etc.), but modern systems are complex and large enough that you can't really walk away from the idea of expressing operations and state linguistically without walking away from tools you need to do your job efficiently (or at all). So yeah, maybe CLI is less accessible and more difficult for newcomers, but the problems they solve aren't necessarily easy, either.

However... I do think there are many opportunities for both better accessibility in CLI's and better interoperability between CLI's and GUI's. Better discovery of options in CLI would help (autocomplete, etc.), as would a better connection between the GUI and CLI worlds. (Lisp has some good ideas where the "terminal" remembers the object it prints and allows interaction with those objects, as opposed to just remembering a string character representation of them. Microsoft's Office applications similarly will write macro code for you as you interact with the UI - which is a great way to understand the relationship between the two worlds.)

Re: Little Things That Made Amiga Great

#183
post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about recvmmsg? I never saw that before Linux, and haven't been able to find a reference to anything similar on say AIX or Solaris.

Really? https://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/009695399/functions/re...

Yes really. I wrote recvmmsg. You linked to recvmsg. They are not the same thing.

Re: Little Things That Made Amiga Great

#184
post #180
post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>NeXTSTEP, Solaris/NeWS, Irix, Plan 9/Inferno. With the Exemption of Plan9 all the OS's you named are pure Unixes. As a example FreeBSD is nearly a mirror of Solaris. Nexstep was pure BSD with a Mach Kernel (OO development was the great seller on NextStep)...Irix? Well OpenGL and XFS is available under Linux. >iOS, macOS, Android, Windows (UWP), GenodeOS, Fuchsia, Haiku, Azure Sphere for the pursuit of modern ideas i…

Narrowing your understanding to the kernel delivered with the UNIX variants that I mentioned, only reveals lack of understanding of what the user and developer experience feels like in such OSes. Hint, it goes beyond doing CLI applications and daemons. BeOS is 25 years older and 25 years younger than UNIX, yes modern.

>Hint, it goes beyond doing CLI applications and daemons.

So please tell me then. All Unixes have more or less the same FHS, Solaris did nothing different as..lets say BSD in the User-space nor did Irix, so tell me what did Solaris or Irix and even Nextstep fundamentally different then any other Unix?

>BeOS is 25 years older and 25 years younger than UNIX, yes modern.

Yeah lets stop here, it's getting ridiculous.

Re: Little Things That Made Amiga Great

#185
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I'm personally bit horrified with is that "Unix" is the end all of OS design and so on. With some fundamental designs going back to 70s... Like everything being text. Which seems quite a mess in current world with multimedia and increased networking. Yes we have spend decades hacking to get it to work... But maybe more options and different designs would enrich us lot better. And really we do have layer that can…

Yes, it's not either/or. The web is a kind of meta-OS with a very minimal and simple API, and as far as the web is concerned everything in userland operates as a thin-client. The OS is only of interest locally. By the mid-90s I was furious with both Microsoft and Apple for setting computing back by at least a decade. You could - with extreme effort - make an Atari ST multitask. And of course with the Amiga it was bui…

> You could - with extreme effort - make an Atari ST multitask. And of course with the Amiga it was built in. ... So why did we throw that away and go backwards to DOS

Mine is a US-centric perspective, it but always seemed like Commodore and Atari were selling niche follow-ons to their eight-bit lines, with momentum heavily toward DOS, even in the second half of the 1980's.

Open up the back of a 1987-era computer magazine, and the pages are full of companies that will sell you a DOS machine, expansion cards, operating system, etc. All these participants in the market are sinking money into the platform to try to establish a competitive advantage by making something better. (The Compaq Deskpro 386 and various video cards come to mind immediately as places where the market rapidly outran the original developers of the platform.)

But if you want an Amiga, you're stuck with Commodore. If you want an ST, you're stuck with Atari. Two individual companies both trying to build an entire _platform_ - custom hardware and OS - that's competitive with the collective output of an entire segment of the industry. I guess it's easy to say this now, but both of those companies picked a hard battle to fight - and both did very well, all things considered.

> ... single-process Windows - which eventually reinvented multitasking nearly a decade later and sold it as if it was the most astounding development in the history of computing?

The development wasn't the technology, the development was getting that technology into a delivery channel where it was relevant to a large group of people. This is why Windows 3.0 was such a big deal - there wasn't anything technically novel in it, but it was cheap, worked with what the customer base already owned, and attracted enough investment to overcome its (many) faults.

Re: Little Things That Made Amiga Great

#186
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally I prefer the plethora of OSes approach, and I never been a big UNIX fan to start with. Yes it does have a couple of nice ideas, and it was much better to use than Windows 3.x + MS-DOS, but that is about it. All the UNIX based OSes that I really appreciate, have moved beyond it, namely NeXTSTEP, Solaris/NeWS, Irix, Plan 9/Inferno. Thankfully only BSD and GNU/Linux are stuck into being a continuum of UNIX cl…

Looks like you missed the whole systemd and cgroups thing. The two are huge and novel developments in OS design, and much more significant than the GUI flimflam you pine for. (Yeah, Linux is a server OS, not news.)

Long time ago in a other galaxy there was a system called "time sharing system"

>The two are huge and novel developments in OS design

Yeah "new" since the 1960 on a Computer called PDP10 from DEC

Re: Little Things That Made Amiga Great

#188
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what ideas are actually new, introduced by Linux crowd, instead of copied from either older UNIXes or mainframes?

How about recvmmsg? I never saw that before Linux, and haven't been able to find a reference to anything similar on say AIX or Solaris.

I never have seen a Bitrot resistant filesystem on Linux before NILFS.

Re: Little Things That Made Amiga Great

#189
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what ideas are actually new, introduced by Linux crowd, instead of copied from either older UNIXes or mainframes?

Did you read my comment? There are no "new" ideas in computing. Everything has already been invented in the 1960's. It's the finesse of execution that matters, not ideas.

>It's the finesse of execution that matters, not ideas.

That's a crime to say "finesse" and "systemd" in the same discussion.

Re: Little Things That Made Amiga Great

#190
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SystemD is like Solaris service manager, but far worse. And, on cgroups, I think AIX has something like that but much, much, MUCH better.

Systemd does a lot more than just manage services. The underlying architecture is a generic resource and dependency management system.

>generic resource and dependency management system

Generic is the complete wrong word for systemd, it's the opposite of Generic.

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