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Poll: 62% of Americans Say They Have Political Views They’re Afraid to Share

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Re: Poll: 62% of Americans Say They Have Political Views They’re Afraid to Share

#181

Post by chromatin »

morelisp wrote: post #149
chromatin wrote: post #78

I would absolutely be denied opportunities for projects, publicity, promotion, and advancement in my field if I were known to have political views that deviated from the norm in my industry, which I will state for the record is hard left. Consequently, I express no personal non-work related opinions not only at work but in fact not even with “friendlies,” as loose lips sink ships. It is a shitty way to live, given ho…

Which industry do you work in? I am looking for a new job and would appreciate something hard-left rather than hard-California, which seems to be the new norm in the worldwide software industry.

Not being familiar with California, How would you delineate the differences?

Re: Poll: 62% of Americans Say They Have Political Views They’re Afraid to Share

#182

Post by atoav »

brigandish wrote: post #132
atoav wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Do we have to show tolerance to the intolerant?" is not the newest question in the book, and historians will probably tell you that in fact free societies stay free if they draw a clear line what is unaccepted behaviour. Liberty is always a balance act, because if you give bad actors freedom in the name of tolerance they will use it to reduce the freedom of weaker actors within society. If you live in a "survival of…

> "Do we have to show tolerance to the intolerant?" is not the newest question in the book Lately it seems to be the most misrepresented part of Popper's "paradox of intolerance", where he defines intolerance as those who resort to violence instead of speech, and the would be censors of this age who bring up the paradox - without seeming to have read it - tell us that the intolerant are those we disagree with. "we" b…

I am quite convinced Popper would have disagreed that the line doesn't needs to be drawn (in some cases) before violence — at least this is what I learned about him when I studied philosophy in Vienna, the city where he grew up in.

Popper e.g. also says that the goal of elections is to have a transfer of power without having to have civil wars, guillotines and other violent means. This means to prevent violence we have to maintain certain rules.

This doesn't mean however, that we have to wait till bad actors in fact act violently, after e.g. having stated they want to abolish these rules, after threatening violence, after breaking present rules and stretching present conventions etc. This means that he didn't want to suppress intolerant views (IF they can be hold in balance with rational arguments and public discourse) — instead he would plead to limit their effects on society (thus reducing potential future violence).

But it has been over a decade since I read Popper, so maybe you read something I didn't.

Re: Poll: 62% of Americans Say They Have Political Views They’re Afraid to Share

#183

Post by astura »

chromatin wrote: post #78

I would absolutely be denied opportunities for projects, publicity, promotion, and advancement in my field if I were known to have political views that deviated from the norm in my industry, which I will state for the record is hard left. Consequently, I express no personal non-work related opinions not only at work but in fact not even with “friendlies,” as loose lips sink ships. It is a shitty way to live, given ho…

I find this to be rather odd only because I've never felt like I wanted to share my political opinions at work, so I don't feel like I'm missing anything. Beyond that we are all too busy working at work so there's not really time to debate the merits of [policy].

But I also don't live in California or work at a venture capital funded startup

Re: Poll: 62% of Americans Say They Have Political Views They’re Afraid to Share

#184

Post by atoav »

koheripbal wrote: post #170
atoav wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Do we have to show tolerance to the intolerant?" is not the newest question in the book, and historians will probably tell you that in fact free societies stay free if they draw a clear line what is unaccepted behaviour. Liberty is always a balance act, because if you give bad actors freedom in the name of tolerance they will use it to reduce the freedom of weaker actors within society. If you live in a "survival of…

The problem is who gets to decide what is unacceptable. If you look at social media, they paint with a very broad brush. ...such a broad brush and so will to employ any means necessary to silence opposition, that they begin to resemble the fascists they purport to oppose.

Of course, this is also something Popper mentions. He says that intolerant voices and lines of thought shall not be suppressed, if they can be counterbalanced by rational arguments and public discourse.

What should be done if this rational argument doesn't work anymore and the public discourse is fragmented is (to my knowledge) not mentioned in his works.

Re: Poll: 62% of Americans Say They Have Political Views They’re Afraid to Share

#185

Post by kls »

TravHatesMe wrote: post #107
foepys wrote: post #21

I honestly think that social networks where you connect the whole world were a bad idea. Basing it on ads and thus engagement made it toxic. Political left and right both formed extreme wings that attack moderate opinions for not being extreme enough. The right is often threatening violence while the left is trying to get you fired from your job. We need to get rid of engagement algorithms and actively try to counter…

> Political left and right both formed extreme wings that attack moderate opinions for not being extreme enough Very well said. I hate all extremes of politics. I like asking questions and being critical. What I have noticed is that critical thinking is attacked viciously from both sides. Asking questions that go against your side's "hard fact" is greeted with intense hostility and vitriol. I would imagine that this…

Not too long ago, maybe 4 months ago I saw an article posted on HN which was along the lines of moderates are more dangerous than the enemy, because they empower the other side. It was a fairly radical piece obviously slanted towards hard-left economic policies. I found the comments to mostly be in agreement and pretty depressing given that I am fairly moderate, I lean a little to the right on economic and personal rights, and well to the left on social issues. This is the way most people when I was a child where. The radicalization has been eye opening to say the least but I am staying in the middle, if both sides of the radicals would rather see me dead (one radical basically inferred, that is what needs to be done with moderates) then so be it.

Re: Poll: 62% of Americans Say They Have Political Views They’re Afraid to Share

#186

Post by mlthoughts2018 »

koheripbal wrote: post #151
chromatin wrote: post #78

I would absolutely be denied opportunities for projects, publicity, promotion, and advancement in my field if I were known to have political views that deviated from the norm in my industry, which I will state for the record is hard left. Consequently, I express no personal non-work related opinions not only at work but in fact not even with “friendlies,” as loose lips sink ships. It is a shitty way to live, given ho…

I applaud your ability to keep politics out of work. We created a hard rule at our company in 2016: No politics / No religion. Most humans are incapable of discussing these topics rationally, and it only serves to increase division at work. One person could not handle the idea of not being politically active at work, and we discovered after she quit that almost everyone was happier no having her toxic commentary omni…

Your comment belies pretty repressive, judgmental, arrogant and close-minded attributes on your part.

This attitude reminds me of the military’s “don’t ask, don’t tell” repression policy against gay service members.

People should feel they don’t have to unnaturally switch off core important parts of their identity at work. They need to have psychological safety to outwardly “be themselves” - without burden to exert extra effort to unnaturally be different.

If you want to talk about severe extremes like preventing hate speech at work or not being allowed to practice nudism in the office, then fine, there’s worthwhile discussion of limits.

But if you want to say “no religion” and “no politics” just because you personally have the extreme arrogance to say “most humans” can’t discuss those topics rationally, then you personally are just an authoritarian thug - and this comes through strongly with the pejorative way you write about religious people, political people and what you personally deem to be “toxic.”

It is far more likely that you are the toxic element, hoping to repress aspects of employee culture for self-serving reasons that change the workplace into an environment you personally prefer at the expense of basic humanity and inclusiveness for others.

Re: Poll: 62% of Americans Say They Have Political Views They’re Afraid to Share

#187

Post by metalliqaz »

matz1 wrote: post #143
metalliqaz wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i'll bet there are still a bunch of people who silently oppose interracial marriage in the US. But... they will be dead soon and their ideas will die with them

A person may die but ideas lives on.

not if they keep it to themselves

also, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planck%27s_principle

Re: Poll: 62% of Americans Say They Have Political Views They’re Afraid to Share

#188

Post by another_sock »

brsg wrote: post #178
another_sock wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I definitely agree with you on that. Most people are far more likely to have a productive discussion when at least one party goes out of their way to be nuanced and careful in how they word things as well as the discussion not taking place in a performative environment (online or in front of other people.) It is definitely a lesson I have learned over time and through my own biases and misbehavior causing myself unne…

Of course, I hope that you didn't take too personally the snark in my original reply =). At most other points in human history, our discussion probably would've been a cordial trade of livestock for bread and there would never be a reason to fear ill will. It's bummer of the 21st century that this time it was meta discussion about politics on the internet.

Don't worry, I don't take much personally and this was not one of those times. The little back and forth that may or may not be sharp is what makes these discussions fun (for me at least) in the first place. I think the added danger and possibility for severe personal consequences might end up being a net positive for everybody in the long run, as you can see in Eastern Europe where Stalinism and its restrictions on free speech resulted in a group of people who generally play things close to the chest by nature but have a very rich inner life and are able to contemplate serious or emotionally charged subjects in a way I find most Americans and first worlders in general lack.

New negatives in environments always come with new positives in the environment's survivors, and I am hopeful that we will all end up with a more thoughtful introspection similar to that which came from "oppression" (I hesitate to call what we are experiencing oppression due to how minor it is compared to gulags.) Some of the world's most beautiful literature as well as brilliant scientists have come out of Eastern Europe, I am optimistic that something similar will be the fruits of what is now underway globally with the advent of social media and its soft tyranny over social relations.

Re: Poll: 62% of Americans Say They Have Political Views They’re Afraid to Share

#189

Post by tupputuppu »

chromatin wrote: post #181
morelisp wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which industry do you work in? I am looking for a new job and would appreciate something hard-left rather than hard-California, which seems to be the new norm in the worldwide software industry.

Not being familiar with California, How would you delineate the differences?

I'd be interested as well. I work for a Californian tech company and I would mostly describe it as "hard left". We have mandatory trainings quarterly where we have to do exams where we say "as long as 50% of tech workers aren't female and black, we 've got a discrimination issue." I've got coworkers who've told me over a beer that they work here exactly so they wouldn't have to work with people who have "other values" and they feel its good those sort of people are outed.

So in essence, feels like a textbook example of what the article was talking about, with leftists having consider able freedom to talk about politics and everyone else marginalized.

Re: Poll: 62% of Americans Say They Have Political Views They’re Afraid to Share

#190

Post by metalliqaz »

koheripbal wrote: post #173
metalliqaz wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what if those views aren't civil?

Then you act like an adult and reject them. Are you afraid that if you hear hate speech, you will learn to hate?

of course not, but a requirement to be civil to uncivil people just allows the brownshirts to take over
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