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Public Apology to Jeremy Howard

numfocus.org

181–190 of 288 posts

Re: Public Apology to Jeremy Howard

#181
As best I can tell, nothing really changed... this type of situation can happen again at numfocus.

Implicit to having a code of conduct, is what you do to enforce it. That's the hard part. The problem stems from organizations that setup these types of disciplinary structures/groups without understanding even the basics of due process.

Note, I'm just reading about this now and have no knowledge of this organization prior, but that CoC group at numfocus reads more like a star chamber than anything.

Re: Public Apology to Jeremy Howard

#182
post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having rules that are written down and apply to everyone is a liberal value, last I checked. It is far more authoritarian for the standards to be unwritten, because then instead of applying them to everyone, the people in charge can do whatever they want. Throwing out the whole concept of having agreed-upon rules because of one bad outcome seems like a major step backwards to me.

> Having rules that are written down and apply to everyone is a liberal value A Liberal is anti-arbitrary power. In the context of formal governments and legal systems, that includes having written laws. I would argue having a vague CoC which is designed to be interpreted and applied arbitrarily by power tripping bureaucrats actually increases arbitrary power. Through the CoC, the committee here was empowered to pers…

I'm not sure I agree. The CoC was written down, which means we can critique it and change it, and hold them accountable to following it (which they failed to do.) And as you see, they are responding to feedback about their handling of it, although I'd guess we'd agree that their response thus far is pretty inadequate. But I'd be inclined to continue to pressure them to step up.

If you advocate for getting rid of CoCs, IMO, you have to have an answer for how actual harassment should be dealt with. Many people I've spoken to did not feel safe at tech events of the past because of rampant harassment that would be swept under the rug. The tech industry of 2020 is not prepared to return to that world.

It seems like step one of dealing with harassment is to define it, which is the problem CoCs should solve. If you think they are failing, what is your alternative, if it's not to improve them?

Re: Public Apology to Jeremy Howard

#183

Am I reading this correctly? It seems to say that Jeremy is still considered guilty of a CoC violation but if he appeals then the board will hear it (rather than the committee). So Jeremey has to file an appeal or the decision will stand? So the onus to fix this is on Jeremy who seems so exhausted by this whole process that he's quit conference talks? That seems a response that lacks any sense of empathy to Jeremy. e…

Yes.

You will also note that the word "sorry" is entirely missing. And the list of things that they failed to "acknowledge" includes their not telling him what rule he was accused of violating, what action of his violated the rule, having literally laughed at him, and having violated their own code of conduct.

They also offer nothing in the way of amends. Or do anything to suggest that there will be consequences to the people who screwed up.

Given that, their assurance that they will use this "to improve our policies going forward" sounds like the meaningless hollow BS that it is.

Re: Public Apology to Jeremy Howard

#184
post #168

What I find positive in this outcome is that Jeremy Howard challenged the organisation to live up to their principles, and they are apparently going to do so. Without the CoC, this would not have been such a clear-cut issue. For those who would do away with CoCs entirely, I suggest you read the HN perennial The Tyrrany Of Structurelessness: https://www.jofreeman.com/joreen/tyranny.htm CoCs are complex in many ways, b…

It wasn’t the CoC that resolved the issue in this instance, it was the fact that the he had the community clout to raise the profile of his mistreatment. Arguably it wouldn’t have been an issue if the CoC didn’t exist.

I don't agree that the CoC caused the issue - note that I said "this would not have been such a clear-cut issue". These people may have complained anyway, and if they were close with the higher-ups then Howard wouldn't have had anything to point to and say "Hey! That doesn't fit this!" Visibility on HN surely helps, but still, even if this had reach HN without a CoC the issue would have been easier to dismiss. This is the clarity that explicitly stating your aims offers.

Re: Public Apology to Jeremy Howard

#185
I'm not going to read the comments here, for obvious reasons, but I do just want to clarify three things:

- I accept the apology.

- I do not accept the assertion that "At the time of the interview, the committee had not determined that there was a violation of the code of conduct, only that there were two complaints filed and being examined." The email to set up the call said "We would like to schedule a meeting so that we can discuss the results of our investigation with you" - nothing further. During the call, the committee stated the list of violations, and said "that is what the reporters stated, and what we found". I asked why they didn't take a statement from me before that finding, and they said "we all watched the video, so we could see for ourselves the violation".

- The committee offered in their apology email to me to have a follow-up discussion, and I declined the offer.

Re: Public Apology to Jeremy Howard

#186

At some point we will collectively realize that the average organization cannot and should not act as a judicial body. Running a fair, competent and accountable court is really hard, and to think otherwise is hubris at best, and unbridled ideology at worst. Edit : apologies for the multiple edits. It sometimes takes me a few tries to precisely express my thoughts.

This is the real issue. CoC proponents seem to think writing down the correct rules is sufficient. But rules are only as good or bad as their enforcement.

Re: Public Apology to Jeremy Howard

#187

Am I reading this correctly? It seems to say that Jeremy is still considered guilty of a CoC violation but if he appeals then the board will hear it (rather than the committee). So Jeremey has to file an appeal or the decision will stand? So the onus to fix this is on Jeremy who seems so exhausted by this whole process that he's quit conference talks? That seems a response that lacks any sense of empathy to Jeremy. e…

They're apologizing for how they handled the incident:

> We apologize for causing this stress and will work to improve our process to avoid this from happening in the future.

> We apologize for not communicating that clearly from the beginning.

They are not apologizing for the existence of the complaints. They do not imply that Jeremy is considered guilty -- they say that the issue is unresolved:

> We should have been clearer saying multiple complaints have been made and the alleged violation investigation had not been resolved.

Their language does not seem to put the onus on Jeremy:

> Because of the missteps of this committee, we have asked the NumFOCUS Board of Directors to take over the work of the committee as outlined in the appeals process of our enforcement guide.

(emphasis mine)

Re: Public Apology to Jeremy Howard

#188

What I find positive in this outcome is that Jeremy Howard challenged the organisation to live up to their principles, and they are apparently going to do so. Without the CoC, this would not have been such a clear-cut issue. For those who would do away with CoCs entirely, I suggest you read the HN perennial The Tyrrany Of Structurelessness: https://www.jofreeman.com/joreen/tyranny.htm CoCs are complex in many ways, b…

Dunno how a CoC may've been material to resolving this situation. I mean, say there wasn't a CoC, then couldn't the accused still have written a blog post about how they were kicked out for merely saying that someone else was "wrong"?

I think the concern is about a formal system being properly implemented. For example, say that we add a formal control mechanism to a door that wasn't previously automated. This has two advantages: (1) the door's now automatic; (2) we can ensure that the door is completely safe, never accidentally closing on anyone. Awesome, right?

But, if the door's automation-logic is faulty, then it's not fully safe. In fact, it can now falsely close on people in situations where it couldn't before.

I think that's what people are worried about here: the CoC appears to have enabled a destructive interaction that, absent the CoC, may've not occurred.

In real life, we usually save legal battles for the big issues because working out formal rule systems can be so cumbersome. People dread going to court because of what a hassle it is! But I don't think that the legal system is malicious; it just takes a lot of effort to analyze things. Cheaper versions of the legal system could be scary, potentially enabling all sorts of faulty, undesirable behaviors. And that's what I think folks fear in CoC's: a naively implemented formal system running amok. They'd rather have to manually open a door every time than risk an automatic door mistakenly closing on them sometimes.

Re: Public Apology to Jeremy Howard

#189
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> NumFOCUS found I violated their Code of Conduct (CoC) at JupyterCon because my talk was not “kind”, because I said Joel Grus was “wrong” regarding his opinion that Jupyter Notebook is not a good software development environment Wow.

AFAICT, according to the apology he had been accused but not convicted of the violation.

According to his account, he was told that he had been convicted.

According to him, now, he disagrees with that assertion in their apology. See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24946688.

Re: Public Apology to Jeremy Howard

#190
This is a classic non-apology. It’s well-written enough that it sounds good on quick read, but let’s break it down:

1. They use “We’re sorry you feel that way” to recast the issue as a simple miscommunication.

> We acknowledge that it was an extremely stressful experience, being summoned to an interview with several members of a committee, after a week had passed, and without knowing the nature of the complaint.

2. Now that the goal posts have been moved, they apologize for the miscommunication and hurt feelings, conveniently sidestepping any wrongdoing in their intentions or actions:

> We apologize for causing this stress and will work to improve our process to avoid this from happening in the future

3. They go on to try to defuse the supposed miscommunication by proposing a new narrative that diminishes part of the victim’s original complaint:

> To clarify a crucial miscommunication that we take responsibility for: At the time of the interview, the committee had not determined that there was a violation of the code of conduct, only that there were two complaints filed and being examined. We apologize for not communicating that clearly from the beginning. We have not recommended any enforcement actions.

4. They then immediately contradict the previous point, admitting that they had indeed recommended some enforcement actions (asking the victim to postpone posting their talk) and that they clearly communicated to the victim that a violation had occurred:

> We had asked to postpone the posting of the talk to the JupyterCon shared space until the complaints are resolved. We realize now that we used overly charged language and miscommunicated the stage of the investigation when discussing the complaints, i.e. saying a violation occurred.

5. Their “What we should have done” sidesteps the core of the issue and again tries to rewrite the narrative as a simple miscommunication about an investigation, despite having just admitted they told Jeremey that a violation had occurred.

> We should have been clearer saying multiple complaints have been made and the alleged violation investigation had not been resolved.

6. Finally, they conclude without apologizing for or even acknowledging the core issue of the ridiculous complaints. They move the goalposts to a different team within NumFOCUS, while casually admitting that this new team will be continuing the investigation into Jeremy.

> Because of the missteps of this committee, we have asked the NumFOCUS Board of Directors to take over the work of the committee as outlined in the appeals process of our enforcement guide.

Unfortunately, this non-apology was clearly revised over and over again by someone with significant PR chops. At first read it sounds like they’re taking responsibility and taking action, but a closer read reveals that they’ve simply sidestepped the core issues, apologized for easy straw man arguments, and managed to reframe the debate in the best light possible for themselves.

If NumFOCUS had simply stepped up and dismissed the violations, absolved Jeremey of wrongdoing, and apologized for letting it get this far, we’d all be in a much better place. Instead, the situation is right back where it started (investigation continues behind closed doors at NumFOCUS).

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