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The 2020 census is being ‘sabotaged,’ says leading U.S. statistician

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Re: The 2020 census is being ‘sabotaged,’ says leading U.S. statistician

#181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Prisoners aren't free, but they still use infrastructure and I'm pretty sure they are supposed to be counted in the census.

They are, because they are free in that they are not slaves. Prisoners still have a plethora of constitutional rights.

The amendment against slavery excludes prisoners: Sometimes, they are, indeed, slaves.

And yeah, they have rights. But they don't have the right to freedom as we know it nor do they have the right not to be slaves.

Re: The 2020 census is being ‘sabotaged,’ says leading U.S. statistician

#183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are, because they are free in that they are not slaves. Prisoners still have a plethora of constitutional rights.

The amendment against slavery excludes prisoners: Sometimes, they are, indeed, slaves. And yeah, they have rights. But they don't have the right to freedom as we know it nor do they have the right not to be slaves.

You act as though there is a single freedom, which is not the case by any means. The amendment carves out specific exemptions for prisoners for certain things, but that doesn't make them chattal slaves, nor does it remove the rest of their rights, e.g. cruel and unusual punishment, ability to have representation, or have their speech curtailed.

Re: The 2020 census is being ‘sabotaged,’ says leading U.S. statistician

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Article 1 Clause 3 requires enumeration of all free persons.

Yes. Again, counting citizens does not also preclude counting free persons. We already gather data on peoples race and religion, proving that we can gather more data than just headcount, and citizenship information has already been gathered between 1950 and 2000.

Counting only citizens does preclude counting all free persons. (If you're speaking about counting all but considering citizenship a demographic, that's legal and used to be done iirc, but was dropped as it was feared it would disincentivize non-citizen being counted. The recent court case about the citizenship question was settled by the courts because of administrative procedure, not the legality of the question.)

Moreover, collecting demographics data is orthogonal and I'm not sure why you're bringing it up.

Re: The 2020 census is being ‘sabotaged,’ says leading U.S. statistician

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not so clear. Tourists are free people, and it might make sense to count them if we are trying to allocate resources to serve all free people (which tourists are). If you don’t count tourists, why would you count migrants who are supposedly going back to their home country? Maybe tourists who are here for 6 months would be analogous.

Who said we should count migrants that are supposedly going back to their country?

Lots of commenters here.

Re: The 2020 census is being ‘sabotaged,’ says leading U.S. statistician

#186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The amendment against slavery excludes prisoners: Sometimes, they are, indeed, slaves. And yeah, they have rights. But they don't have the right to freedom as we know it nor do they have the right not to be slaves.

You act as though there is a single freedom, which is not the case by any means. The amendment carves out specific exemptions for prisoners for certain things, but that doesn't make them chattal slaves, nor does it remove the rest of their rights, e.g. cruel and unusual punishment, ability to have representation, or have their speech curtailed.

I'm not sure who would classify prisoners as free, though. Classifying prisoners as free is warping what most folks would consider free. You can have rights and not be free. POW's are supposed to have certain rights, too, but that's hardly free. You can have rights without being free. Not being chattal slaves doesn't make you free either, nor does it mean you aren't a temporary slave.

In general, folks would agree that if you are in a situation where you are forced to eat at certain times, possibly only use toilets or showers at certain times, can be used as labor with little to no pay, and can never roam freely at the behest of armed guards that can shoot you, you aren't free. The main exception to some of this is military, but for now, this is something folks choose and some countries' soldiers are more free than the ones in the states.

Re: The 2020 census is being ‘sabotaged,’ says leading U.S. statistician

#187

> This means [it eliminated] literally a third of the time allocated for the Census Bureau to knock on doors, to try to enumerate the hard-to-count individuals, which happen to be African Americans, Latinx populations, immigrants, people in heavily transitory situations, tribal lands, some Asians. Random question but why would some races have more trouble than others responding to the census? Is it more to do with po…

Statistician (but not a Census statistician) here with a few answers: Black people have a higher than average non-response rate, even controlling for income, possibly due to a cultural mistrust of government institutions (for good reason). Recent immigrants may not be able to read the language the census was mailed to them in, and may also be hesitant to respond due to fears of deportation- the point of the census is…

I'm not sure it's true that

> states that normally vote Democrat are more likely to lose votes than states that normally vote Republican

because it could be true (1) that individuals who vote Democrat are more likely to go uncounted but (2) that states that vote Democrat are not more likely to be undercounted.

A few (totally imaginary) mechanisms that would do this: 1. Suppose Democrats who are surrounded by Republicans tend not to respond to the census, but everyone else does. Then you'll undercount Democrats, but mostly in places full of Republicans. 2. Suppose rural Democrats tend not to respond to the census, but everyone else does. Then again you'll undercount Democrats, but mostly in more-rural states, which tend to lean Republican. 3. Suppose poorer people (however they vote) tend not to respond to the census, but everyone else does. All else equal, richer people are more likely to vote Republican, but richer states are more Democratic. (I think Andrew Gelman's "Red State, Blue State, Rich State, Poor State" talks about this.) Then Democrats will be undercounted more, but Republican states may be undercounted more.

I don't know whether mechanisms with this sort of counterintuitive property are actually responsible for enough of the census-counting difficulties to produce that paradoxical outcome, but it doesn't seem obviously impossible.

(Of course, if what we're considering is the nefariousness of possible motivations, then what matters isn't whether such mechanisms actually do do that, but whether the potentially-nefarious people in question expect them to. That's a different question and my guess is that they probably don't even if they should.)

Re: The 2020 census is being ‘sabotaged,’ says leading U.S. statistician

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the future daily low-cost high-resolution images of the country could give a real-time accurate headcount. Is that being discussed? Would be a good way to get away from the 10 year lag data and have real time information to make policy choices.

Upper management wouldn't know what that means. Can't even make a good app.

You should mention it somehow, would be good to plant the seed that the organization may be able to solve the counting issue in the next decade, then they can move on to other labels to focus on.

Re: The 2020 census is being ‘sabotaged,’ says leading U.S. statistician

#189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are multiple games being played concurrently by all of the different participants, making it hard to understand what/why from the local context of a single game. If both sides erode your faith in the system, I suspect it's because you see real problems that need to be solved, but the people "elected to solve them" are instead constrained by these games. Speaking of systems--can you clarify what about the electo…

I think the "Great Compromise" helps correct for the fact that people in different locations value different things and have different experiences. People who live in farming communities understand plenty of things that people in cities don't and vice-versa. Beyond that, it's an agreement that was reached between states who were giving up their sovereignty to join together. If we discard compromises like that because…

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Re: The 2020 census is being ‘sabotaged,’ says leading U.S. statistician

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poor white people aren't likely to have an undocumented - person of color - living in their household. I've known a number of local households that had undocumented Canadians, Brits and Germans. It's been my experience that Americans who are hyper-concerned with illegal immigration, aren't grinding their teeth over these nationalities.

There's definitely a double standard. But Canadians and Europeans make up less than 5% of the total number of undocumented immigrants in the US. So I still stand by my point that poor white people aren't likely to have undocumented people living in their household at all. Regardless of race. >I've known a number of local households that had undocumented Canadians, Brits and Germans. Also how many of those households…

Let's consider this conversely. Do you feel that the tone, tenor and actions (of immigration resistance) would be different, in any way, if Euro descendants made up 95% of immigrants?
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