Is Stupidity Expanding? Some Hypotheses • Hacker News Board

Re: Is Stupidity Expanding? Some Hypotheses

#181

Post by pier25 » Thu, Oct 15, 2020, 10:11 PM UTC

pdonis wrote: post #161

pier25 wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For example, in Salem, Massachusetts in 1695, people who said witches did not exist were the ones who were believed to be on the fringe. Indeed, but those people were highly religious Puritans that emigrated to the New World because they were prosecuted in England. https://www.history.com/topics/colonial-america/puritanism When you put those kind of people in isolation and a high stress situation you get those kind…

> When you put those kind of people in isolation and a high stress situation you get those kinds of behaviors. The Puritans were by no means the only people of that time who had mainstream beliefs that we now consider delusional. You'd be hard pressed to find any significant body of people of that time who didn't. > For example, climate change denial. I would also say, climate change alarmism. Which, if you are incli…

> The Puritans were by no means the only people of that time who had mainstream beliefs that we now consider delusional. You'd be hard pressed to find any significant body of people of that time who didn't.

We will be mocked for sure in 300 years but OTOH witch hunts maybe weren't as mainstream all over Europe as you might think.

For example, in Europe between 1450 and 1750 35,000 witches were executed. Of those, only 1,000 were executed in Spain, Italy, and Portugal in 300 years which for sure were religious countries (I'm from Spain).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witch-hunt#Early_Modern_Europe

I'd be surprised if there wasn't some debate as to what caused those witch hunts. Was it societal paranoia or was it just a way for the church to exert their power?

> I would also say, climate change alarmism.

I don't know what you consider alarmism in this case, but the situation is certainly dire. I don't think it's far fetched to think that if we continue in business as usual, modern industrial civilization could be at risk.

As a small example, consider the wildfires of Russia in 2010 which triggered an increase in the global price of grain and many experts believe that fueled the Arab spring revolutions of 2011.

https://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/06/world/europe/06russia.htm...

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/climate-change-an...

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2011/jul/17/bread-f...

Re: Is Stupidity Expanding? Some Hypotheses

#182

Post by AlexandrB » Thu, Oct 15, 2020, 10:11 PM UTC

mynameishere wrote: post #85

TallGuyShort wrote: post #32

I've engaged a few flat earthers to actually listen to their arguments and show them my own evidence that it's real (locating amateur radio satellites using data shared by people around the globe and demonstrating the doppler effect on them). The response strikes me as being indicative of mental illness. And I don't mean that as an insult - I mean that when confronted with that they're clearly irrational. And somethi…

I've engaged a few flat earthers... Let me rephrase that for you: "I've been trolled by a few of the world's most obvious trolls..." Really, man. The internet has been around. We've been around the internet. There's this kind of stupidity that's almost...meta stupidity, you know? Like, do you really not realize the flat earthers are putting one on? Maybe you're putting one on right now...because, how can you seriousl…

I really wish that you were right, but you should consider the possibility that it's you who is being naive. I've met a real-life flat-earther (a relative of mine, actually) who definitely was not trolling. From sufficient distance flat earth beliefs are not really that different from anti-vax. Both employ the same questioning of conventional science and fall back on plausible-sounding but discredited theories. Yet, I don't think anyone would call anti-vax a troll movement. There's also a political dimension to these movements that should not be overlooked. If you have time, I highly recommend this video: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JTfhYyTuT44

Re: Is Stupidity Expanding? Some Hypotheses

#183

Post by Fricken » Thu, Oct 15, 2020, 10:14 PM UTC

seppin wrote: post #169

Fricken wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Throughout most of history people have believed wildly incorrect things, yet civilization carries on. Unless you're an astronomer or involved in some pursuit in which the shape of the earth is of material consequence, it just doesn't matter. Flat earthers find community and identity amongst other flat earthers, and that to them is of much higher significance than whether the earth is actually flat or not.

> Throughout most of history people have believed wildly incorrect things, yet civilization carries on. Society has mostly been run by autocratic systems. If we are determined to make democracy work, conspiracy and anti-fact ideologies are existential threats.

Democracy has worked in the past because most members of said democratic societies believe largely the same things. They don't have to be the correct thing, they just have to be the same thing. This was easier when information was more tightly controlled and curated. The internet has opened us to a Babylonia of different belief systems, which is not so good for functioning civilizations. Free speech was easier to defend before the internet when it wasn't quite so free.

Re: Is Stupidity Expanding? Some Hypotheses

#184

Post by pdonis » Thu, Oct 15, 2020, 10:15 PM UTC

qsort wrote: post #178

pdonis wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "The earth is flat" is not a claim that's false upon closer inspection of the available data, it's a claim that's prima facie false No, it isn't. We view the claim as absurd today only because we have the benefit of millennia of collection of evidence and arguments and theory that has established "the earth is round" beyond a reasonable doubt. But for a person who either does not have access to all that evidence an…

> We view the claim as absurd today only because we have the benefit of millennia of collection. This premise is just historically false. Ancient civilizations knew full well the earth was not flat. More people in the history of mankind have known the earth is round than how to multiply.

> Ancient civilizations knew full well the earth was not flat.

Some did. Not all of them. The first one I'm aware of is the Greeks. Do you know of any earlier ones?

Also, the fact that particular intellectuals knew the Earth was round in a society does not necessarily mean it was common knowledge in that society, much less that it was such common knowledge that the average person would think it absurd to question it and would be able to explain why. The books we have from the ancient Greeks that give good arguments for the Earth being round were probably not read by more than a tiny fraction of the population. The earliest example I can think of of the roundness of the Earth being taught in a widespread fashion is the Christian church after it accepted the roundness of the Earth as dogma and taught it as such.

Re: Is Stupidity Expanding? Some Hypotheses

#185

Post by qsort » Thu, Oct 15, 2020, 10:16 PM UTC

jariel wrote: post #175

qsort wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mean to attack you, but I don't think you are approaching this the right way. There are exactly zero people who believe the earth is flat. Some join conspiracy groups because they are social outcasts who enjoy being part of a tight-knit group, while for the most part they are being isolated and rejected (sometimes, admittedly, because of faults of their own, unrelated to being flat-earthers). They aren't insa…

So this is an interesting point and shouldn't be dismissed, it may be at the heart of irrational beliefs. People can 'come to believe' what benefits them. If an idea is truly exciting or engaging, or makes people feel special, or part of a 'group' esp. of 'special people' - it's just more likely we believe those things as 'factual'. So in a way - though they would 'pass a lie detector test' and 'truly believe in a fl…

Yes, this is a better way to phrase what I was trying to say. They might actually believe it, but it's not because they find the arguments convincing. It's a "meta" issue.

Re: Is Stupidity Expanding? Some Hypotheses

#186

Post by honest_josh » Thu, Oct 15, 2020, 10:16 PM UTC

Before the Internet and social networks The Stupids never got a change to speak. Now their voice are amplified by their peers.

Re: Is Stupidity Expanding? Some Hypotheses

#187

Post by Krasnol » Thu, Oct 15, 2020, 10:17 PM UTC

TallGuyShort wrote: post #58

grenoire wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there is too much information around for the average person to filter and process and digest. All three are important parts of living in a society and it looks to me like even with e.g. economic issues alone, it's just very hard for (to be fair) anybody to keep up. In turn, people reach out to conspiracy theories to simplify the world around them with obvious answers and explanations. My theory, sort of.

Yeah that crossed my mind as well. People who have so little understanding of the mechanics behind it all that they think it's impossible we've put anything in Earth orbit - how could ANYONE understand that? In one case though I had someone say that I wasn't hitting satellites, I was hitting a solar-powered high altitude plane. When I pointed out that it would have to be going at 23 times the speed of sound at sea le…

They've probably been just improvising.

They become quite good at it as it follows simple rules.

Re: Is Stupidity Expanding? Some Hypotheses

#188

Post by pier25 » Thu, Oct 15, 2020, 10:20 PM UTC

jariel wrote: post #171

pier25 wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Generally speaking, humans have always been (and will always be) irrational. Even the most rational among us make plenty of irrational decisions or have contradictory beliefs. We've replaced religion and witches with aliens, new age beliefs, flat Earth, reptile conspiracies, etc. I don't think it was that different a couple of centuries ago. I read in the book Supersense by the neuroscientist Robert Hood [1] that in…

Don't conflate 'religion' with 'arbitrary beliefs'. Of course within religion there is going to be a lot of 'arbitrary belief', but that's not what it is essentially. 'Parables' etc. are a function of how it's communicated and propagated, ironically, for the 'dumber folks' who 'need something material to believe in' and for whom more abstract concepts don't provide solace. Religion is a metaphysical perspective of ex…

> Religion is a metaphysical perspective of existence, one based on spirituality from which we develop our humanity, morality etc. and none of that is irrational.

Humans have been naturally selected to cooperate over millions of years. Religion only exists because we yearn the feeling of community which is biological and it only makes sense that a unified culture makes a group most likely to survive.

Also, any belief based on magical thinking (very present in religious people) is intrinsically irrational.

Re: Is Stupidity Expanding? Some Hypotheses

#189

Post by jcranmer » Thu, Oct 15, 2020, 10:24 PM UTC

mynameishere wrote: post #85

TallGuyShort wrote: post #32

I've engaged a few flat earthers to actually listen to their arguments and show them my own evidence that it's real (locating amateur radio satellites using data shared by people around the globe and demonstrating the doppler effect on them). The response strikes me as being indicative of mental illness. And I don't mean that as an insult - I mean that when confronted with that they're clearly irrational. And somethi…

I've engaged a few flat earthers... Let me rephrase that for you: "I've been trolled by a few of the world's most obvious trolls..." Really, man. The internet has been around. We've been around the internet. There's this kind of stupidity that's almost...meta stupidity, you know? Like, do you really not realize the flat earthers are putting one on? Maybe you're putting one on right now...because, how can you seriousl…

I'm not going to deny that trolls are definitely involved in Flat Earth, but I suspect that most of the adherents actually truly believe in it. The key thing to realize is that modern Flat Earth isn't just about Flat Earth; it's basically a (very heavily) syncretized modern Gnosticism. By that I mean that it combines several beliefs:

* Absolute dualistic cosmology: there is an Absolute Good and Absolute Evil locked in a titanic struggle in which humans are the pieces. The forces of Absolute Evil are expending every effort to knock us off the narrow path to Absolute Good.

* Gnostic notions of revelation: the path to salvation is mostly, if not entirely, dependent on the knowledge of the revealed truth of the universe. Acquiring this knowledge is difficult, and (following the above point) the forces of Absolute Evil are trying their best to prevent you from gaining it. But fortunately, those who have come before us can help us in the acquisition of knowledge.

* Evangelism: once you acquire the knowledge, you must (as a good person should!) turn around and save as many people as you can by educating them on the revealed truths of the universe. And if they look at you like you're a rambling lunatic or try to "fix" your knowledge, then clearly they must be agents of Absolute Evil trying to drag you down with them.

* The actual cosmology: [insert a mishmash of the cosmology [1] of several disparate religions here] and the Earth is actually flat.

These kinds of belief systems, with a variety of substitutions for the last bullet point, have been around for millennia. Flat Earth isn't even the first such system in my short Millennial lifetime. The actual beliefs of these systems are less important than the fact that you have the revealed knowledge, which is also why people seem to be able to move very quickly from one system to another (as Flat Earthers basically all jumped ship to Qanon).

[1] One of the things to draw attention to, from what I can tell, is that these sorts of beliefs tend to extract only the cosmological and supernatural beliefs from religion and ignore the moralist beliefs.

Re: Is Stupidity Expanding? Some Hypotheses

#190

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Oct 15, 2020, 10:24 PM UTC

puranjay wrote: post #68

I haven't managed to read a book in two years now. I spend all my free time on this rectangular glass hellhole. And I seem to have given up on rational analysis and stupidly jump into the trenches to argue with people I know are incredibly wrong. So I can at least say that I'm getting dumber. But if I had to comment on the original article, I'd go with option B, no. 9. The internet has truly made stupidity more acces…

[deleted]