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The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

economist.com

181–190 of 323 posts

Re: The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

#181
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, just the freedom of talking about the issue already makes the US much better than China.

That’s the key. Western people VALUE this freedom of speech A LOT, but it’s not a prevailing concern for even most Chinese citizens.Years of enlightenment and education are needed to raise that awareness. Sadly CCP knows how to prevent you do it. Imagine 0.01% of Chinese population have the awareness and willing to fight for it, that’ll be a huge deal already.

> 0.01% of Chinese population

I look at Taiwan with great hopes.

Re: The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

#182
post #18

“Here's my strategy on the Cold War: we win, they lose.” ― Ronald Reagan I think it's becoming clearer and clearer that this strategy has to be adopted with China as well. They are out to win, to dominate the world, and they won't back down, and they will use any method to do it. And ask yourself if the world you see inside China is what you want spreading.

If you were poor muslim peasant - where would you rather live?

In China controlled Xinjiang or next door in US controlled Afghanistan?

China and the US are both empires. What happens on the periphery is not always pretty. But to pretend one is good and the other is evil is stupid at best and dangerous as worst.

Re: The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

#183

Seeing this stated so clearly and prominently in an influential publication brings me hope. I am skeptical though that many people, especially those in the position to make influential choices, especially those who have profit tied up with China, will do anything other than see it and nod.

[deleted]

Re: The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

#184
post #108

It stands to reason that had Nazi Germany not attacked its neighbors, the rest of the world would have happily stood by and watched them execute their own Jewish/undesirables population with nothing more than some strongly-worded letters and trade sanctions.

Most likely. People often forget that before the invasion of Poland in 1939 Germany had already annexed Austria and Czechoslovakia. So even attacks on neighbouring nations had to escalate quite a bit before any action was taken by the UK and France.

Hm. But action were taken, no? Both power mentioned were happy to let Germany eat both austria and Czechoslovakia: see https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_Agreement

The idea was to let Germany fight Soviets in the east, while British and french were hiding behind that fortification line.

Re: The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

#185
post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s the key. Western people VALUE this freedom of speech A LOT, but it’s not a prevailing concern for even most Chinese citizens.Years of enlightenment and education are needed to raise that awareness. Sadly CCP knows how to prevent you do it. Imagine 0.01% of Chinese population have the awareness and willing to fight for it, that’ll be a huge deal already.

> 0.01% of Chinese population I look at Taiwan with great hopes.

Yeah unfortunately they are already effectively independent on a island. And somehow mainland people don’t admire Taiwan people that much

Re: The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

#186
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the US really much better than China? We do similar to black, Native American, and immigrant people. I'm not sure I want either winning in their current state.

The US has concentration camps for blacks, native americans and immigrants, where they reeducate you to follow a tyrannical political system? Are they tracked through a social credit system where you can't get a train out of your town if it's bad? Where journalists repeteadly disappear? Where a treaty with the UK is ripped up and a city is invaded? Yeah. Accurate.

> The US has concentration camps for blacks, native americans and immigrants, where they reeducate you to follow a tyrannical political system?

What do you think the school-to-prison pipeline and legal prison labour amount to? Black, brown and native people being forced into slavery and imprisonment. Not to mention ICE detention camps.

> Are they tracked through a social credit system where you can't get a train out of your town if it's bad?

Ever had to get a background check for a job? To rent a house?

The only reason this is so visible in China is because it's foreign to us. We grew up with redlining and ghettos and mandatory minimums, so we don't even realize it's a different implementation of the same system

Re: The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The world I see inside USA doesn't seem like something worth spreading either.

I'm not sure if we would all feel that safe sharing that sentiment in an internet run by China. West might be failing in a lot of things, but it is best we have.

I'm only posting this because I never intend to visit American soil. Otherwise I wouldn't dare. Because I know that these kinds of messages might be connected to my person and used against me if I ever come in conflict with American enforcement.

Re: The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point of UN and UNSC is as a venue to talk about these things and negotiate solutions - it's not like it ever was an option to have an UN that can make binding decisions on the major powers, no major sovereign power would ever agree to that. The default position is that a sovereign nation can do as it pleases; if other nations does not like it, they are welcome to try and force it to change with military power -…

> The point of UN and UNSC is as a venue to talk about these things and negotiate solutions - it's not like it ever was an option to have an UN that can make binding decisions on the major powers, no major sovereign power would ever agree to that. You know, the original intent of UN was of an organisation to do exactly this. After the second world war, the determination was made that the no pill is too bitter to prev…

While it might have been the intent, that was never a realistic option.

The treaties and decisions of UN can only be binding on the members iff they voluntarily join these treaties. If USSR wasn't admitted to UN, then UN would be even more useless than historically. If UN was designed to be more strict - to require effective, significant delegation/surrender of sovereignty - then even other major powers would not join, and it would also be even more useless than historically.

Theoretically there could be a model of "UN" that would consist of the West trying to impose their decisions on the whole world. But that would require both the will and the ability to actually enforce these decisions despite the cost in blood, and there is neither.

Regarding will, it would have to be sort of like a military aggressive super-NATO - which "the west" was not willing to do; there's a reason why the NATO treaties are strictly as a defensive alliance, and even then limiting the territories which will be defended (so i.e. a military attack on British and French overseas colonies would not trigger any obligations from NATO); and regarding the ability - throughout the Cold War the West was obviously not capable to unilaterally force USSR to do anything, so a super-UN was impossible, and the current UN was the most that was achievable.

Re: The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

#189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an immigrant who's experienced and seen both countries, yes, and that's with the US's glaring imperfections. We at least are brave enough to openly admit our faults, and it's in our history books and not whitewashed. imo that's a key step. Nothing else is possible if you can't admit that there's a problem, and getting to this step is nearly impossible without free speech In addition to freedom of speech, we also h…

No Iraqi is comparing US to Iraq. I don't understand why there is always a contest between US and China. US is a developed country, and China is a developing country. It is not a beauty contest. Also there does have to be only one winner. Maybe, just maybe, there is no need to mess up another country.

You have a point, but China and the US are rival countries with ideologies that aren’t completely compatible

Re: The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the US does have the concentration camps at the border where forced surgeries and sterilizations are being performed.

Camps yes, but if you're going to be technical, it's actually spread through out the United States and not just at the border and it is bad when you compare it to other developed countries. Forced surgeries and sterilizations? For a claim like that, you're going to have to cite a credible source. As imperfect as we are, we're not as bad as China.

> A report claims women in immigration centers are being given unnecessary procedures that can leave them unable to conceive.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/sep/21/unwanted-hys...

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