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Advice to my young self: forget side projects and focus on your job

manuel.darcemont.fr

181–190 of 396 posts

Re: Advice to my young self: forget side projects and focus on your job

#181
post #28

> First, most recruiters don’t care about your personal projects or how many meetups you went during the... Why are you trying to impress recruiters? I mean, the entire point of the post is wrong, but impressing recruiters is downright stupid. Let's be frank: recruiters are bottom-of-the-totem-pole, lowest-common-denominator, bottom-feeders. If you aren't trying to do your own thing (which, let's face it, is the most…

My sister is a recruiter. I’ll be sure to tell her that you think she’s a bottom-of-the-totem-pole, lowest-common-denominator bottom-feeder. That’ll brighten up her day. And when she doesn’t take it to heart, I’ll be sure to add a ‘Let’s be frank...’.

Two things. First the "I know / am related to / am married to group" so you can't have a negative opinion about group thing is super cringe. I'm also pretty sure it's one of the logical fallacies. To put into perspective here is a rather extreme example: "My cousins an axe murderer, I'll be sure to tell him you think axe murders are bad, that'll brighten up his day". See how me saying I'm related to an axe murder doesn't actually change your opinion on axe murderers at all?

Secondly, Bottom of the Totem Pole is actually the revered position[1]. Bit of an amusing cultural knowledge oversight on the OPs side ;-)

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totem_pole#Meaning_and_purpose

Re: Advice to my young self: forget side projects and focus on your job

#182
That's about the right advice for folks who are still climbing the ladder. As an IC, if you're talented and lucky, you'll eventually stall at the "senior coder" at FANG level. That comes with a respectable salary of 500k/year and a hard glass ceiling. At that point doing even more IC work won't bring you any further. Most settle there, buy a house, start a family and continue doing their "senior coder" work till retirement. Nothing wrong with that.

There are two primary paths from that level: middle management and senior management. If you like the first, learn to speak well, work on your image and build the reputation of a responsible and reliable person who takes the rules seriously. You'll get promoted and eventually you'll stall at the "director" level.

The senior management path is about financial and personal risk. This is where you'll need to build a successful side gig, turn it into a multi million dollar business and negotiate a senior manager position, with very nice compensation, with competitors who will try to take you down in the process. A lot more fun, more risk and a lot more reward.

Re: Advice to my young self: forget side projects and focus on your job

#183

Every time this topic comes up on HN I feel like the only person who does side projects because I enjoy them as a hobby. Learning for the job is distantly secondary, and getting my next job is tertiary. They're perks to something I'm doing anyway, not justifications for doing it. Yeah, I program at work, but the tasks I get at a software job don't scratch the itch that got me into tech in the first place. Just like h…

You're far from alone, it just seems like as hobby/passion programmers tend to spend more time programming and less time posting about work life balance on Twitter or HN. So naturally they have a quieter, smaller voice in these kind of discussions.

Re: Advice to my young self: forget side projects and focus on your job

#184

The only reason I have my job that I do now is because of side projects. How else are you suppose to learn different parts of the stack when you're (usually) only hired to work in one part? How are you suppose to learn DevOps/CloudOps unless you're on an Ops team? Many (most?) companies don't delegate full stack responsibilities to individual teams.

I think we need to differentiate between a "learning project" and a "side project." Those are two very different things, at least to me. A learning project is a project you're doing with the express intent of learning a new technology. The focus is on the learning, not the delivered functionality. A side project is a project you're doing for the community. It's a labor of love. The focus is on functionality and meeti…

So we have three already:

- learning project (focus on learning)

- side project (focus on functionality)

- cv-enhancing project (focus on optics, what the original article was mostly about and against)

In my experience, side projects are by far the most fun. All of the learning projects I've done in the past had some goal to achieve, something I could show someone and feel proud. I find it difficult to learn just for the sake of learning. Perhaps this is why I struggled with schooling.

Re: Advice to my young self: forget side projects and focus on your job

#185
> I’ve always been involved in my work, being proactive in bringing new technologies, mentoring the other developers, helping the team to grow, but I was doing this just because I liked my job. I was not considering this as something important in my career, simply because I didn’t want too. To develop my career, I was spending a lot of time outside work reading technical books, doing toy projects, going to meetups, browsing Hacker News.

This is a very good & important assessment, realization, & I appreciate the author's reassessment.

> Secondly, I don’t think that multiplying the side projects is useful unless they are substantial.

A phrase that recuringly comes to mind when hearing of a lot of side projects is, "Dream no small dreams for they have no power to move the hearts of men."

I very much want to see a world where computing is a good & sensible place, for scratching your own itch. But at the moment, just getting started on a modest web project is pretty hard. Even if you don't need user accounts, it's still a lot of grunt-work, gulp-work, webpack-work, and or babel-work. Oh you want users with their data? Now multiply the number of hours by 20x. Folk like hood.ie & UserGrid have attempted to lower the effort-to-start, Firebase & others are certainly selling themselves on trying to accelerate the mid-level lift here, the 200's & 300's level courses of "getting your app going". But it's hard. We're not great.

So at the moment, scratch your own itch is hard to do well in a time effective manner. My take-aways are two fold: 1. on a macro scale, we should work harder to build a better systematic base to work from, and 2. a lot of side projects are over-invested in. As a chronic maker-of-side-projects, knowing how to put something down & walk away is a crucial skill. Unlike the author, I do think there's a quite considerable value in having some shallow experience, including with things you are not likely to use (understanding the meta-patterns of computing, seeing similarities across systems is where mature understanding starts).

> I don’t want to make this blog post a rant against side projects. In fact, I’m advocating the exact opposite. Continue to do as many side projects as ever, code on nights and weekends if you want too, but don’t think about how they could be useful to you to get a new job. Don’t do all the tutorials you find about Vue.js, but use this weird technology that you saw yesterday on Hacker News.

An imo unfortunate & accurate statement of a dwindling spirit of the technical community! We have heavily industrialized[1] these days, & our hunger to explore outer bounds & interesting potential is much diminished. As a result, those of us who are pioneering by nature are less in demand, more settlers and town planners are needed[2]. For now, we are "technically mature", we believe we have "good solutions" to the problems that are common & identified. For this to shift, we need more cause for adventure, more sense that computing has bigger open possibilities than what we've settled down around. I for one continue to believe the future is still exciting.

[1] https://daverupert.com/2020/01/the-web-is-industrialized-and...

[2] https://blog.gardeviance.org/2015/03/on-pioneers-settlers-to...

Re: Advice to my young self: forget side projects and focus on your job

#186

Every time this topic comes up on HN I feel like the only person who does side projects because I enjoy them as a hobby. Learning for the job is distantly secondary, and getting my next job is tertiary. They're perks to something I'm doing anyway, not justifications for doing it. Yeah, I program at work, but the tasks I get at a software job don't scratch the itch that got me into tech in the first place. Just like h…

Exactly this. I do my side projects for personal development and enjoyment. It's my opportunity to grow in whatever direction I like, and I'm not going to let my job dictate what kind of side projects I'm taking on.

If that results in skills useful at work, or for finding work, that's a nice but entirely secondary benefit. The more important benefit is burnout prevention - because I too "don't get paid to do the interesting things that first attracted" me to software, or science and technology in general.

> I'm just boggled at how many people appear to find it unimaginable and unrelatable that a technologist likes technology enough to mess with it for fun, even after work.

Me too. I sometimes wonder if I'm not missing out, but try as I might, I don't enjoy the "normal" stuff as much as I enjoy intellectual stimulation. I also sometimes wonder if this isn't because my eyes just don't get tired from screens. I can look at computer screens 16 hours straight, and my eyes don't get dry or itchy. I had co-workers who had to use saline drops at work, and I can understand if they didn't want to look at any screen when they got home.

Re: Advice to my young self: forget side projects and focus on your job

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My sister is a recruiter. I’ll be sure to tell her that you think she’s a bottom-of-the-totem-pole, lowest-common-denominator bottom-feeder. That’ll brighten up her day. And when she doesn’t take it to heart, I’ll be sure to add a ‘Let’s be frank...’.

Two things. First the "I know / am related to / am married to group" so you can't have a negative opinion about group thing is super cringe. I'm also pretty sure it's one of the logical fallacies. To put into perspective here is a rather extreme example: "My cousins an axe murderer, I'll be sure to tell him you think axe murders are bad, that'll brighten up his day". See how me saying I'm related to an axe murder doe…

> Secondly, Bottom of the Totem Pole is actually the revered position[1]. Bit of an amusing cultural knowledge oversight on the OPs side ;-)

Hah, this is super interesting. I'm almost certain that I heard or read the "bottom-of-the-totem-pole" saying before, but you're totally right that I may have reversed it!

Re: Advice to my young self: forget side projects and focus on your job

#188
Boo! This is awful advice.

I'm constantly commended on my side projects, and I excel at them because I enjoy them:

- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x034jVB1avs

- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XTi-jf-ans

- https://vo.codes

- https://trumped.com

The laser stuff made me wealthy, and that wasn't even my intention. People at the time told me it was a huge distraction from my academic career and a waste of time.

My current side project is a real time voice converter (like Mission Impossible).

Follow your passion. You'll deliver better results and open lots of doors.

Your side projects will also usually be pretty novel. It's fertile ground for startup material.

Re: Advice to my young self: forget side projects and focus on your job

#189
post #128

I've been putting more and more effort into my side projects recently (all on GitHub). It's kept me sharp, passionate, always gives me something to optionally think about (e.g. when exercising), provides conversation pieces (with the right crowd of course), has taught me a whole bunch of new techniques and has kept me relevant in this fast moving industry. My side projects include: - An Air Quality Monitoring Dashboa…

How do you feel about the author's conclusion?

> I don’t want to make this blog post a rant against side projects. In fact, I’m advocating the exact opposite. Continue to do as many side projects as ever, code on nights and weekends if you want too, but don’t think about how they could be useful to you to get a new job.

IMHO, that's over-doing it, but fairly on target. Like dating, one wants to be an interesting person. Your projects, to me, demonstrate that you are an interesting person, but as per the topics of collaboration & communication that the author starts with, while yes I want to work with interesting people, it's not what I've found to be the primary nor even all-that-distinguishing characteristic of hirees. Somewhat sadly; keep hacking! ;)

Re: Advice to my young self: forget side projects and focus on your job

#190

Every time this topic comes up on HN I feel like the only person who does side projects because I enjoy them as a hobby. Learning for the job is distantly secondary, and getting my next job is tertiary. They're perks to something I'm doing anyway, not justifications for doing it. Yeah, I program at work, but the tasks I get at a software job don't scratch the itch that got me into tech in the first place. Just like h…

I used be like that when I was younger. Hell, I taught myself to program doing this exact thing. But nowadays, I really don't want to spend weekends looking at a monitor all day. Before you know it, you've spent 8 or 10 or whatever hours tinkering away. There's a point where it's not healthy. It'll catch up with you and there's a danger you'll find yourself not having the enthusiasm to do your hobby projects and also…

I wonder what will catch up with us exactly. A serious question - because I'm by no means young, and I'm still in the "forever tinkering" phase. I wish I could spend 8 or 10 hours on it on a regular basis - but the job that's funding my tinkering is also taking away the time for it.
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