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China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

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Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#181

Post by mistermann »

nl wrote: post #167
mistermann wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ya, I can see the connection. If that's true, it's quite interesting, I'm not sure if that makes him seem better or worse. The similarity I'd say is that I'm also emotionally detached from the situation (but intellectually attached - I perceive most people to have the opposite combo, fwiw). Differences I see are that I have no influence in the matter, and I have largely the opposite goals of Hitler. My favorite relev…

I don't know how old you are, but I'm old enough to remember when the Berlin Wall fell. I'm sure you remember 2019, when it seemed impossible that international travel would essentially shut down. The seeming inevitable isn't. Things change. > this is starting to look like it's going to be just one of those very unfortunate facts of life The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

> The seeming inevitable isn't. Things change.

Sometimes some things change, sometimes they don't. It depends how you look at it. For example: there is change, and then there is rate of change. The latter typically doesn't get a lot of attention.

I wonder how the Uighurs look at it, or the millions of downtrodden and disenfranchised people now and throughout history - differently than IT folks like you and I who have the luxury of waxing philosophical about such things.

> The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

I would say that this is both profoundly true, but also little more than a catchy slogan to reinforce the egos of people who think they are good.

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#182

Post by mistermann »

jacobush wrote: post #163
mistermann wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ya, I can see the connection. If that's true, it's quite interesting, I'm not sure if that makes him seem better or worse. The similarity I'd say is that I'm also emotionally detached from the situation (but intellectually attached - I perceive most people to have the opposite combo, fwiw). Differences I see are that I have no influence in the matter, and I have largely the opposite goals of Hitler. My favorite relev…

You are clearly very intelligent. You could do something else with that. Over a lifetime, you could have an impact on China, through sanctions or whatever. That, is also , Moloch, of course. But if we can’t but fight, at least fight the good fight.

> You could do something else with that.

Perhaps I am.

> Over a lifetime, you could have an impact on China, through sanctions or whatever.

The status quo ("democracy", sanctions, "diplomatic talks") is what got us into this position in the first place. It's how the game is played.

> That, is also, Moloch, of course. But if we can’t but fight, at least fight the good fight.

What does the good fight consist of?

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#183

Post by DeonPenny »

adrianN wrote: post #156
DeonPenny wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you have to think the CCP know what to optimize for. Which history shows us govts rarely know more than people faced with issues daily.

I think you need to differentiate. Some issues can't be optimized by the people facing them daily, because game theory forbids them. Issues involving coordinated action are basically unsolvable bottom up.

I think history disagrees with that. With deregulation and incentive and because how the resource pool in human civilization according to Pareto distributions. You can have a individual coordinate most things bottom up if you let them. Like people thought private space flight was impossible, but it ended up being more impossible from a top down process than a bottoms up on via elon musk.

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#184

Post by AtomicOrbital »

innovation is the main driver of economic liftoff and when folks are punished for deviating from accepted norms they are squashing those same fountainhead people who sprout breakthroughs ... a smothering government is killing the golden goose ... such short leash monitoring and punishment may sound good in the short run however china elite know their authoritarian approach is doomed and are scrambling to forestall their downfall

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#185

Post by HashingtheCode »

nl wrote: post #179
HashingtheCode wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apparently with the SCS, if you were to be blacklisted there is possibility to challenge the decision. Liu Hu appealed his decision but is still on the blacklist and has problems due to his low SCS. Another case is listed below: In Xie’s case, he didn’t have time. “No one notified me that I was on the blacklist. Then court officials detained me, so I had to pay the fine,” he said. Xie is now off the blacklist. Lawyer…

Interesting. For all the valid criticism of the Chinese court system, that is still faster than the case I linked in the US. Not sure what that shows...

It should hopefully show, that once you get blacklisted on the SCS system, getting off it and living a normal life is extraordinarily difficult.

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#186

Post by Matticus_Rex »

wombatmobile wrote: post #113
mcguire wrote: post #106

" The idea behind this is understandable: As social networks decline and anonymity in cities rises, the social pressure to behave in an acceptable way declines as well. China now replaces this social pressure with the Social Credit System so that people even when living anonymously in any city behave in an acceptable way. " Holy sh*t. That's some straight up Orwellian thought, there.

Contrast that with these words: I pledge Allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all.

Also (almost) no one has to say the pledge, though.

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#187

Post by mcguire »

mpalmer wrote: post #149
chrischen wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you elaborate?

Social pressure to modify behavior happens organically and not for anyone's particular ends. But such pressure applied by a government system is automatically suspect and rightly so. Especially if the government is of the sort where nothing exists to serve as a check on the policymakers.

Additionally,

* People will not behave "acceptably" without constant social monitoring. This is similar to the Puritan belief that, if you didn't live in a town where your neighbors could watch you, you could be assumed to be worshiping Satan.

* That the best modern form of that social monitoring is 24/7 surveillance with merits and demerits for trivial things.

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#188

Post by hker »

powerapple wrote: post #170
hker wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only that. Not only non-Han Chinese face oppression (Uyghurs, Tibetans, Mongolians [1]), but lower class Han are also not well treated [2]. Point is, we should not judge the progress of China based on its most affluent class. Things are much more messy behind the cover. And when we try to see the full picture, China is less and less a role model for others to follow. [1]: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/31/world/…

Since when you want to have a developing world as a model for others (developed world) for follow? There is a reason developing world is called developing world. And it doesn't mean a developing country should not follow China's approach to multiple issues.

This comes back to the article: we should not follow Chinese social credit system.

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#189

Post by nl »

HashingtheCode wrote: post #185
nl wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. For all the valid criticism of the Chinese court system, that is still faster than the case I linked in the US. Not sure what that shows...

It should hopefully show, that once you get blacklisted on the SCS system, getting off it and living a normal life is extraordinarily difficult.

Yes, that's true. But it doesn't seem orders of magnitude worse than getting off the no fly list (and I expected it to be impossible).

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#190

Post by HashingtheCode »

nl wrote: post #189
HashingtheCode wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It should hopefully show, that once you get blacklisted on the SCS system, getting off it and living a normal life is extraordinarily difficult.

Yes, that's true. But it doesn't seem orders of magnitude worse than getting off the no fly list (and I expected it to be impossible).

Guess we'll find that out soon enough
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