Amazon deletes job listings for analysts to track ‘labor organizing threats’ • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon deletes job listings for analysts to track ‘labor organizing threats’

#181

Post by paxys » Tue, Sep 01, 2020, 7:33 PM UTC

umvi wrote: post #108

wnevets wrote: post #78

Whenever unions are mentioned on HN there always seems to be a coordinated effort to attack them in the comments, very interesting.

Maybe because a lot of people on HN are small business owners, and unions take power away from business owners and can and will force you to do things to the detriment of your business if they deem it in the best interests of the union members.

Most of people on HN work at large tech companies. In my experience the majority consensus in the industry is that a union would do more harm than good, but of course that is infinitely debatable.

Re: Amazon deletes job listings for analysts to track ‘labor organizing threats’

#182

Post by paxys » Tue, Sep 01, 2020, 7:35 PM UTC

anoxor wrote: post #16

Having been a part of a union I was mandated to enter when I took the job until the supreme court ruled that wasn't legal, actual unions are a far cry from how they are portrayed as helping the worker. I would honestly do anything in my power to not have to work in a union again. They are set up as antagonistic between administration and workers, and adds a layer of bureaucracy that I've only seen be negative. I've w…

> I've worked with people who effectively could never be fired and were so bad at their jobs they spread negativity with everyone they encountered.

Same, and my workplace doesn't even have a union.

Re: Amazon deletes job listings for analysts to track ‘labor organizing threats’

#183

Post by kmlx » Tue, Sep 01, 2020, 7:35 PM UTC

hh3k0 wrote: post #71

anoxor wrote: post #16

Having been a part of a union I was mandated to enter when I took the job until the supreme court ruled that wasn't legal, actual unions are a far cry from how they are portrayed as helping the worker. I would honestly do anything in my power to not have to work in a union again. They are set up as antagonistic between administration and workers, and adds a layer of bureaucracy that I've only seen be negative. I've w…

Nice anecdata. Unions are necessary to ensure fair negotiations between employees and their employer, though. Any negotiation between a single employee and their employer is inherently unfair, as the latter holds far more power. Unions are a tried and true concept almost everywhere in the world, the Nordic Countries being a particulary good example. It'd seem that being unable to provide basic rights for workers is p…

> Any negotiation between a single employee and their employer is inherently unfair

wow! what a statement.

you are of course entirely wrong. you are generalising when in reality your statement is true only for some employees in some jobs.

i think the time for these kinds of statements died in the 80s. the more we progress thru time the less we need unions because of all the new wealth that is created via the internet.

Re: Amazon deletes job listings for analysts to track ‘labor organizing threats’

#184

Post by triceratops » Tue, Sep 01, 2020, 7:37 PM UTC

rumanator wrote: post #175

djsumdog wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And keep in mind, we don't have a "pure" capitalism like the insane libertarian types would. (Remember how Ron Paul said Civil Rights legislation was unnecessary because the market would have taken care of it? It took years of fixing the system with child labour laws, union laws, anti-discrimination laws, factory strikes, workers riots, civil rights laws, minimum wage, etc. Capitalism works in the Nations where it do…

> Remember how Ron Paul said Civil Rights legislation was unnecessary because the market would have taken care of it? I wonder how people could make such an argument if they have historical records of business owners rejecting more paying customers and spending more to put together duplicate infrastructure just because they felt that some paying customers had to be subjected to degraded levels of service just because…

Faith doesn't require evidence.

Re: Amazon deletes job listings for analysts to track ‘labor organizing threats’

#185

Post by PragmaticPulp » Tue, Sep 01, 2020, 7:37 PM UTC

heavyset_go wrote: post #152

umvi wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe because a lot of people on HN are small business owners, and unions take power away from business owners and can and will force you to do things to the detriment of your business if they deem it in the best interests of the union members.

The vast majority of people on HN are people who need to work to eat and keep a roof over their heads, and the companies they work for take power away from them, and will force them to do things to the detriment of themselves if it's deemed in the best interests of the company. A union is a company that represents the interests of workers in the same way that a company is an entity that represents the interests of ca…

That lawsuit didn’t require unions, though. If anything, it’s a great example of how our industry can overcome these issues without unionization.

People tend to forget that unions represent the existing employees, not aspiring hires. This can actually work to the detriment of juniors and newcomers to the industry. It can also work to the detriment of teams where it becomes intensely difficult to fire people who are legitimately underperforming. The public school unions keeping bad teachers on the payroll but keeping them idle in empty rooms is a prime example. Police unions defending bad cops is another very relevant example. If you’re an aspiring teacher or police officer with motivation to do well, why should those union employees take a spot on the job that you could otherwise occupy and do better? Switching the rules of the game to favor seniority doesn’t benefit people who rank low on the seniority ladder.

Re: Amazon deletes job listings for analysts to track ‘labor organizing threats’

#186

Post by filoeleven » Tue, Sep 01, 2020, 7:37 PM UTC

mattacular wrote: post #79

diebeforei485 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's much easier to quit an abusive boss if you have some income to sustain yourself (UBI). You don't have to put up with the abuse for another month or two until you have a new job offer, etc.

If that were true then how come existing social safety netting in the form of unemployment benefits haven't helped people stuck in this type of situation?

Unemployment benefits only kick in for people who have lost their job through no fault of their own, though state laws probably vary here. If I quit because my boss is a jerk, or I’m not being paid enough, or many other reasons, I am not eligible for unemployment. My employer has a lot of power, since finding a new job can take a lot of time that I may not have given a full workday and other responsibilities.

The vast majority of people who receive unemployment had an unplanned job loss, which already puts them at a disadvantage both planning-wise and psychologically. If instead you KNOW that you will receive income when choosing to leave a job, you are more able to prepare for how it will affect your lifestyle.

Re: Amazon deletes job listings for analysts to track ‘labor organizing threats’

#187

Post by cmrdporcupine » Tue, Sep 01, 2020, 7:38 PM UTC

csb6 wrote: post #94

wnevets wrote: post #78

Whenever unions are mentioned on HN there always seems to be a coordinated effort to attack them in the comments, very interesting.

Yeah, it’s discouraging. But Hacker News is a place for capitalists (self-identified) or wannabe capitalists to hold discussions, and the site is run by a venture capital firm, so makes sense. Still discouraging to see the lack of education HNers have on unions. Maybe ignorance is a better word.

I think it's maybe a bit more subtle. In our industry there's what I call the "California Ideology" (after the classic essay: https://www.metamute.org/editorial/articles/californian-ideo... which is a bit dated but still stands the test of time)

At one point this perspective was fairly counter cultural -- computing technology fused with Alvin Toffleresque third wavism, a tinge of libertarianism but without a suit and tie, some LSD, some cyberpunk, wear jeans to work, "change the world", etc. But that sheen is increasingly wearing off.

The reality under the surface dressing is we are part of an industry with deep military ties, and it doesn't matter if you wear jeans to work and get vegan treats in the cafe, there's nothing particularly radical about computing technology and while we're "changing the world" it's really not in any egalitarian or progressive way.

We're part of a semi-managerial class that is doing on the whole pretty damn well financially, but there's no reason to expect that to last forever.

A lot of us ran around saying "information wants to be free" in the 90s and so on, it looked a bit naive to me then, but now it just looks comical and sad.

Re: Amazon deletes job listings for analysts to track ‘labor organizing threats’

#188

Post by colinmhayes » Tue, Sep 01, 2020, 7:39 PM UTC

beeboop wrote: post #130

colinmhayes wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, capitalism is awful, but it's by far the best idea we've got.

Please, go on and continue the propaganda about how socialism and communism doesn't work. Please point to failed nations/states that had communism and explain how they failed due to communism and that it definitely wasn't anything else.

Becoming a communist state is impossible. The leader of the socialist state won't let it happen. Power corrupts, why should we be putting more power in the hands of the state in hopes that one day it will relinquish it?

Re: Amazon deletes job listings for analysts to track ‘labor organizing threats’

#189

Post by Strang » Tue, Sep 01, 2020, 7:40 PM UTC

csb6 wrote: post #94

wnevets wrote: post #78

Whenever unions are mentioned on HN there always seems to be a coordinated effort to attack them in the comments, very interesting.

Yeah, it’s discouraging. But Hacker News is a place for capitalists (self-identified) or wannabe capitalists to hold discussions, and the site is run by a venture capital firm, so makes sense. Still discouraging to see the lack of education HNers have on unions. Maybe ignorance is a better word.

Well-informed, good-faith disagreement is possible on a range of topics, including this one.

Re: Amazon deletes job listings for analysts to track ‘labor organizing threats’

#190

Post by cactus2093 » Tue, Sep 01, 2020, 7:40 PM UTC

csb6 wrote: post #125

dencodev wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's less about education, and more about "fuck you got mine" for a website full of engineers whose average salary is probably 6x that of the average American

It’s partially self-interest, true, but speaking for Americans, there really is no widespread, institutional education on what labor unions are or do, and what benefits they can bring. Most people simply don’t think about them or believe whatever their employers’ PSAs tell them to believe because no one else ever talks about labor organizing to them.

You're talking about union education as if it's equivalent to mathematics or something, like there is an absolute truth to be learned. Surely even the most pro-union people would acknowledge that not every implementation of a union is equivalent? And that some have caused harm?

I would say I'm union agnostic, I'm not against them but I have about the same amount of faith that a union will improve things in a given situation as that the government will. Both are supposed to be a representation of the people, run by the people, and both are often too bogged down by bureaucracy and power seeking to actually do anything constructive. Sure there are great historical examples of unions accomplishing great things, just are there are great historical examples of governments passing landmark laws, but neither of those guarantees that these institutions will do the right thing in any future scenario.

And to the extent that I am going to put trust in one of these institutions, I'd rather choose the government. I'd rather see, for instance, healthcare given as a right to every citizen, than healthcare given to employees in just one industry. And in fact, unions have been some of the strongest opponents of medicare for all initiatives in the US in recent years. They've already negotiated good healthcare benefits for their members and they don't want everyone else who's not a member to get it too. This kind of "us vs them" incentive system doesn't appeal to me. And more fundamentally, I strongly believe that a lot of basic things (again, like healthcare, or disability insurance, or the ability to invest in a retirement account) should be much less coupled to employment than they are today, and unions are a force in the opposite direction.