Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

abcnews.go.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

181–190 of 435 posts

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#181

Post by GordonS »

hajwh wrote: post #169
GordonS wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're intoxicated on opioids, you are not going to be violently resisting arrest in the first place.

George Floyd was intoxicated on opioids and violently resisting arrest.

AFAIK, the toxicology report showed tiny amounts of methamphetamine and THC - I don't recall opioids being mentioned at all.

A quick Google shows that only in the past few days, the cops are now trying to say he does from a fentanyl overdose, rather than the knee on his neck. TBH, this seems purely like an attempt at scapegoating, making him out to be the "stereotypical black man, crazed on drugs".

But we're veering off topic now. I'd rather not discuss the rights and wrongs of the police in this case, because I will disagree hard with any attempts to justify the actions of the police, so there is no interesting discourse to be had there, and HN is not the right platform regardless.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#182

Post by [deleted] »

dj_mc_merlin wrote: post #62

> He got 500 milligrams because they thought he weighed 220 pounds, but he was only 140 pounds and should have received 315 milligrams. 315 milligrams is still.. a lot. Especially injected into the bloodstream (I presume?) all at one time. Enough to really wrangle your marbles even if you're used to that kind of stuff. edit: To expand, that's about the dosage most people would get delusions of some sort, but not be 1…

[deleted]

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#183

Post by sesuximo »

GhostVII wrote: post #132

Pretty much everywhere in the world, paramedics are allowed to inject sedatives when treating a patient. Ketamine is used in many places (the US, UK, Canada, Australia, Austria) by paramedics, because it is very safe relative to other sedatives. So the main concern should whether or not police are ordering EMS to administer it when it is not actually required (police do not administer it themselves), since I don't th…

The article says that 17% of uses in Colorado lead to complications.

—-

Also, I googled “Canada” and “Australia” alone with “Ketamine” “police” and got nothing. Can you support your claim that other countries do this?

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#184

Post by vertex-four »

GhostVII wrote: post #144
JohnBooty wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is technically true and misses the point. Police are ordering paramedics to inject it. (edit: to be clear, I am saying that yes, ordering somebody else to do it is morally equivalent to doing it yourself... if it's wrong to do it yourself, it's just as wrong to order somebody else to do it) Pointing out that the police aren't injecting it themselves is like pointing out that [insert name of murderous dictator he…

There is a huge difference between police injecting it and police ordering trained paramedics to inject it. The comment I was responding to was implying that it was dangerous for police to administer Ketamine because they are not trained, and I was saying that is not an issue since they are not the ones administering it. I don't think police should be ordering EMS to administer Ketamine, but even if they are that is…

The decision of whether or not to administer any drug should always be in the hands of someone who knows what they’re doing, and if that decision is not made by the person receiving the drug it should be made by somebody sufficiently detached from the situation so that they can make a good clinical decision as to how to medically treat the person for a condition they are suffering from. A cop who has someone in a chokehold is not sufficiently detached from the situation.

You cannot say “give them ketamine” and just leave the dose up to the paramedic and call it safe.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#186

Post by hansvm »

mortehu wrote: post #103
axaxs wrote: post #3

Why are we injecting people during arrests, which by definition are not yet guilty people? Even if nobody had died, this is absurd.

If you are resisting arrest, you may still be presumed innocent of the original crime. However you're almost certainly guilty of resisting lawful arrest, which is usually a misdemeanor. There's no exemption that allows innocent people to resist lawful arrest. This is not to say that injection sounds like a great solution for everyday arrests.

> There's no exemption that allows innocent people to resist lawful arrest.

It's a bit murkier than that in the US. In some states you can't even resist unlawful arrest, but in all states you're allowed to defend yourself against _excessive_ force.

In practice that's probably a bad idea, but if you survive the retaliation from somebody who's armed and who has already proven themselves prone to excessive use of force then you might win the ensuing court case.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#187

Post by rz2k »

GhostVII wrote: post #107
mateus1 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Policemen without any medical training are injecting and murdering people with drugs. This is a disturbing (and new) phenomenon. At least for someone outside the US.

That is false, police are not injecting people with Ketamine. As the article says, paramedics are.

There are many instances of police officers arresting paramedics, nurses and firefighters for ridiculous reasons while they are trying to do their jobs as first responders. That includes refusing to break the law, such as when a nurse knows performing a procedure without a court order is assault.

The administration of medically unnecessary ketamine does not belong in the toolbox of things that the police request, or more realistically "order". It is irresponsible to assume police will defer to judgement of professionals with training and a code of ethics, when they are solely focused on making a person comply.

There are enough terrible public policy decisions where people later claim "we didn't know". People are saying now this is a recipe for abuses and unnecessary deaths.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#188

Post by sesuximo »

GhostVII wrote: post #117
rvnx wrote: post #112

Sounds like the worst idea ever. Hope these practices will stay in the US only.

Also happens in Canada ( https://communityedition.ca/paramedics-in-wr-will-soon-admin... ), they administer it for pretty much the same reason as in the US. And Australia.

At least they say that ketamine must be approved by a physician first. Also a bit weird that I can’t find any other articles saying this. Maybe I am searching the wrong thing

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#190

Post by projektfu »

p0llard wrote: post #119
kevingadd wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course, the definition of "lawful arrest" is pretty flexible these days and can seemingly include arrests that are blatantly unlawful, like some cops deciding to assault a random passerby on the street because they don't like the look of them or are unhappy about legal conduct like photography. Is it okay to resist under those circumstances? According to a judge or a police officer, probably not, but at the end of…

> According to a judge or a police officer, probably not I'd naively hope that a judge wouldn't side with a police officer here, but I think the fact that resisting arrest is inherently criminal is a pretty big flaw in the US legal system. I live in a jurisdiction [1] where resisting arrest is not criminalised in the same sense as the US, and the idea that a police officer could unlawfully arrest you and then immedia…

Since the '70s it feels like law enforcement (and juries to some extent) are informed by two movies much more than the Constitution and case law: Dirty Harry and Death Wish.
Post reply on HN