Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

newscientist.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

181–190 of 295 posts

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#181

Post by idclip »

submeta wrote: post #154

Mindfulness meditation is not about negating ego, but about observing, seeing what is in front of you, not judging, it is about perspective, about patience (sitting in silence, not running after every thought or desire you have), about learning to be gentle and patient with yourself and others. It is about waking up to your current reality, to the present moment. About coming from an illusionary state of mind to an a…

+1

5 times vipassana, ive experienced ALOT of abuse as a child. It did make me raw... my inner child is very hurt ... that is truth.

Sadness is warranted and worthy, that is truth ... sadness is transient, that is truth.

If the world will deny my inner child and dismiss my abuse and rape as depression, i must stay with myself until he finds comfort in my arms.

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#182

Post by jrochkind1 »

dTal wrote: post #26

It's important to bear in mind that meditation is a religious practice specifically aimed at causing ego-death. Yogis writing about the practice (before it became big business) freely admit all sorts of horrible-sounding mental side effects, but couch them in religious terms (and encourage the acolyte to push through until they achieve "enlightenment", which they describe as a profoundly nihilist state of being). Thi…

There are various different strains of religous/spiritual/philosophical traditions that use meditation (of various kinds), in Hinduism and Buddhism (buddhism especially spread around the region in different variations), (maybe also in esoteric/mystical Abrahamic traditions too?), I'm not sure "ego death" or nihilism is seen as a goal or anticipated as an outcome by all of them.

But I think it's probably true that none of them think meditation is a "simple stress-reliever". It is a powerful tool, and like all powerful tools, you can cut yourself with it, and should learn it with someone more expert who can guide you and keep you from hurting yourself.

I suppose what's "good for the soul" depends on your theory of the soul and what's good for it. (Those who believe something resembling "ego death" is the goal believe that's "good for the soul"!) Seeing it as a tool to make you "more effective" (sounds like some kind of "productivity") definitely doesn't seem right, although probably is common in the de-spiritualized "self-improvement" U.S. "mindfulness" trend.

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#183

Post by aliswe »

submeta wrote: post #154

Mindfulness meditation is not about negating ego, but about observing, seeing what is in front of you, not judging, it is about perspective, about patience (sitting in silence, not running after every thought or desire you have), about learning to be gentle and patient with yourself and others. It is about waking up to your current reality, to the present moment. About coming from an illusionary state of mind to an a…

I believe this sort of misses the point. In swedish some of the more serious conditions are called meditationally (induced) psychosis, or meditational psychosis: Meditationspsykos.

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#184

Post by naruvimama »

There is rampant commercialization and distortion of powerful techniques. It takes a lot of experience and hands on training, and years of observing the guru teach others before one does it themselves.

So much so that there exists a term guru-sishia parampara, when the teaching of a school are perfected and handed down through the generations.

Another factor is a lot of us are perfectly aware of the pointlessness of our day to day activities, but are very frightened to break out of it. It gives us a kind of familiarity and is "normal" to be that way.

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#185

Post by aliswe »

dx87 wrote: post #39

This is the equivalent of saying exercise is bad because "People who engage in physical activities sometimes experience unwanted muscle soreness and joint pain". Dredging up old repressed emotions is one of the first things I learned about meditation, and you're supposed to learn to deal with them instead of keeping them buried in your head forever.

Except that physical exercise is related to well understood, easily measurable mechanisms. Perhaps this article seeks to counterweight the overwhelmingly positive reputation that meditation etc has.

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#186

Post by 5rest »

0xdeadbeefbabe wrote: post #163
brainless wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find this subject very interesting. I'm an Indian with a typical understanding of the concept of meditation being about perspective, patience and such ideas. But I have seen multiple times that Western culture somehow seem to try to extract something out of it. As if trying to commercialize meditation. Peace with oneself, at one's current state is perhaps the only thing I relate with mindfulness. I have been in dep…

> I have seen multiple times that Western culture somehow seem to try to extract something out of it. I wonder what you think about yoga in the West? I think it gets competitive.

Western yoga has been evolving over the last couple of centuries. An age-old proverb says - Truth is one, wise express it in many ways. Indian teachers came to the West and Westerners went to India to learn about Indian Philosophy - Yoga. Ideally speaking, Yoga is free for all. Some teachers started charging a fee for making a living, which may be fine. Slowly dilution of purpose occurred and some worst-case teachers turned to be opportunists. The result is most of the Western Yoga schools/studios focus on postures, yoga pants for flexibility a few raise to teaching breathing techniques for a calmer mind, and rarely few pickup the actual spirit of Yoga described in original texts Bhagavad Gita or Patanjali yoga sutras.

" The total structure of life requires of our total being to be united with it in a practical demonstration of thought, speech and action – this is yoga." [https://www.swami-krishnananda.org/patanjali/raja_01.html]

If you want to know what yoga is, a good starting point is Aurobindo's "The Synthesis of Yoga "[http://www.sriaurobindo.nl/docs/Sri%20Aurobindo/23-24TheSynt...]

Lastly, it is a happy coincidence people (including Indians) like yoga exercises. Most of us will be happy with the results of the exercises resulting in flexibility and transient calmness in mind. Real seekers go after Yoga for years and it is not available down the street or online. In reality, ultimate Yoga - a union of gross, subtle, and causal bodies - is very high-bar to reach.

Hopefully, it gives some people a glimpse of the original idea of Yoga. I'm sorry if this is too wordy and preachy.

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#187

Post by Mo3 »

JesseMeyer wrote: post #67
charliemil4 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How did you get out of the tailspin? It’s quite hard to “pull up” when there is nothing that feels grounded...

There was no pulling up. And there was no ground beneath my feet. Just an endless ocean with no points of reference by which to orient oneself. So the only course of action was not to search for rocks to cling to, but of learning how to swim, and dive in. As backwards as it may read, I only felt secure after having let go of myself. As odd as this description may sound to someone who has not experienced this, it is i…

Yep, that rings a bell. :)

All the best to you.

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#188

Post by dorkwood »

This is anecdotal, but I feel that learning to meditate has caused my mind to go blank much more easily during conversation.

Before I ever knew about meditation, it felt like my brain would always serve up whatever words and ideas were needed to keep the sentence going. I even felt like I was quite a quick-witted person. But now I'll often lose my train of thought and suddenly be left with a completely empty head. I might be wrong, but I'm pretty sure this didn't happen in the pre-meditation days.

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#189

Post by Buttons840 »

submeta wrote: post #154

Mindfulness meditation is not about negating ego, but about observing, seeing what is in front of you, not judging, it is about perspective, about patience (sitting in silence, not running after every thought or desire you have), about learning to be gentle and patient with yourself and others. It is about waking up to your current reality, to the present moment. About coming from an illusionary state of mind to an a…

> A level that is beyond that. A mind that observes your thinking mind.

In the way I was taught mindfulness meditation, "equanimity" means observing without desire. You do not seek pleasure, you do not flee from pain. It does seem to give that "level above" feeling you mention. I consider this the most valuable skill I have learned during my limited time meditating.

> Mindfulness meditation is about practicing being in the present moment, nothing more than that.

This seems false. Even your own comment follows the "nothing more that that" with a list of additional things. As I mentioned, I've found the skills that help me be aware of the present moment are more valuable than actually being aware of the present moment.

I think of jogging. I hate jogging. Whenever I do it I am fully focused on the moment. Can I endure another 2 steps? And then another 2 steps? That's pretty focused on the moment. My desperate breaths, my aching side, that's living in the moment. Yet, it is not like meditating. I do not develop any of those skills you listed at the end of your comment when jogging. Thus, I think meditation is about the skills required to be in the present moment rather than actually being in the present moment. The detachment, the observing without desire, etc.

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#190

Post by JesseMeyer »

wavepruner wrote: post #156
JesseMeyer wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meditation is a blade with no hilt. I _accidentally_ fell into a vipassana state of mind after the first time trying a particular religious chant, seriously, from out of the pains of boredom as a 20 year old. At the time I lived nearby mountains, and after 'coming to', I saw them through the window. I cannot describe to you the overwhelming feeling of beauty and awe that crashed over me. It was as though this was the…

What was the chant?

A simple 4 note repeating melody of the word, in pieces, 'Hal.le.lu.jah'. Forget where I learned it from.
Post reply on HN