Vitamin D deficiency and Covid-19 mortality [pdf] • Hacker News Board

Re: Vitamin D deficiency and Covid-19 mortality [pdf]

#181

Post by benibela » Wed, Aug 05, 2020, 11:05 PM UTC

devaboone wrote: post #164

dropin685 wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here (below) is a quote from the article, on the subject of calcium. (I suppose some of us may be reluctant or unable to have calcium levels monitored. But it seems all of us should be taking vitamin K2 along with our vitamin D.) >The authors explicitly point out that each vitamin D supplementation must be accompanied by sufficient vitamin K2. This certainly prevents the rise of the calcium level in the blood, which…

Vitamin K2 does help bones absorb calcium, but it will not prevent the blood calcium level from rising if you are really taking more Vitamin D than you need. This is simply wishful thinking.

Is vitamin K safe to supplement? Or does it mess with the blood clotting?

People recommend really quite doses: K2-MK7 at 100 to 200mcg, or alternatively K2-MK4 15 to 45 mg (not mcg).

Re: Vitamin D deficiency and Covid-19 mortality [pdf]

#182

Post by sachdevap » Wed, Aug 05, 2020, 11:06 PM UTC

ColanR wrote: post #167

devaboone wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read the study that is cited on your link. It was a review article about Vitamin D, not a study on Vitamin D toxicity. And in fact, in the references for that article, there is no study cited directly related to Vitamin D toxicity that I can see. The cutoff at 10K is largely someone's opinion. I cannot say how many people will be harmed by taking such a high dose, but I know with certainty that toxicity at that dos…

Thanks for the response. I'm curious what your wife thinks about this article [0], mentioned elsewhere in this discussion. It makes the case that the current RDA for Vitamin D is based on a statistical error, and that the recommended dose should be closer to 8000 IU for young adults. [0] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28768407/

FYI, that is the wife/doctor's account you replied to.

Re: Vitamin D deficiency and Covid-19 mortality [pdf]

#183

Post by graeme » Wed, Aug 05, 2020, 11:09 PM UTC

ColanR wrote: post #167

devaboone wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read the study that is cited on your link. It was a review article about Vitamin D, not a study on Vitamin D toxicity. And in fact, in the references for that article, there is no study cited directly related to Vitamin D toxicity that I can see. The cutoff at 10K is largely someone's opinion. I cannot say how many people will be harmed by taking such a high dose, but I know with certainty that toxicity at that dos…

Thanks for the response. I'm curious what your wife thinks about this article [0], mentioned elsewhere in this discussion. It makes the case that the current RDA for Vitamin D is based on a statistical error, and that the recommended dose should be closer to 8000 IU for young adults. [0] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28768407/

Not OP, but with vitamin D the dosage is actually something you can figure out empirically by testing vitamin D levels and taking supplements.

No one who talks about supplementation seems to think a level of 8000 over a long period is necessary to obtain adequate levels.

I think by the same token the recommended supplement level of 600 IU is inadequate to reach a sufficient level. But the paper in question didn’t test their result empirically.

Re: Vitamin D deficiency and Covid-19 mortality [pdf]

#184

Post by DoreenMichele » Wed, Aug 05, 2020, 11:26 PM UTC

pure_simplicity wrote: post #166

devaboone wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Calcium metabolism is complicated, but there are a few things that are straightforward. 1. Vitamin D helps the intestines absorb calcium, so taking more Vitamin D can lead to more calcium being absorbed in your intestines, and thus more calcium in the blood. The excess calcium in your blood is caused by increased absorption from the intestines, not from bone release. (High calcium with parathyroid disease is caused b…

Do you know what could be happening if taking vitamin D gives you severe headaches that last for days and gradually get weaker? If you need more information, please ask away.

As someone who has worked on various deficiencies over the years, including vitamin D, I will suggest it means the dose you are taking is probably too high. When I had similar issues, reducing my sun exposure -- which was how I was improving my vitamin D status at the time -- resolved the headaches and vomiting that I was experiencing.

Re: Vitamin D deficiency and Covid-19 mortality [pdf]

#185

Post by trott » Wed, Aug 05, 2020, 11:32 PM UTC

et2o wrote: post #5

Vitamin D has been endlessly promoted as a treatment for many diseases due to evidence from observational studies, but hundreds of millions of dollars in randomized controlled trials have never demonstrated it to be effective for any disease except rickets. There was just a large trial published in JAMA [1] examining its effectiveness for depression given solid observational data. It was not at all effective. The rea…

> Vitamin D has been endlessly promoted as a treatment for many diseases due to evidence from observational studies, but hundreds of millions of dollars in randomized controlled trials have never demonstrated it to be effective for any disease except rickets.

This randomized controlled trial, with 11000 participants "confirms vitamin D protects against colds and flu":

https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2017/02/study-confirm...

Re: Vitamin D deficiency and Covid-19 mortality [pdf]

#186

Post by yelloworangefog » Wed, Aug 05, 2020, 11:33 PM UTC

People need to be really careful when sharing papers like these and repeating their conclusions without the appropriate disclaimers. That's always the case, and especially during a time when so many people are unable to consult their doctors and resorting to self-medicating based on hearsay and overconfidence in their own ability to interpret scientific papers.

To be clear, I'm not saying vitamin D deficiency in relation to Covid mortality isn't a valid line of inquiry for the health community to take their research in. But from what I can tell, this is far outside the authors' areas of expertise.

I'd say this kind of thing in particular has the potentially to be even more dangerous than irresponsibly discussing the effects of something like hydroxychloroquine, because so many people don't realize how dangerous vitamins and other such 'natural' remedies can be when taken without the supervision of a medical professional.

Re: Vitamin D deficiency and Covid-19 mortality [pdf]

#187

Post by DoreenMichele » Wed, Aug 05, 2020, 11:38 PM UTC

et2o wrote: post #5

Vitamin D has been endlessly promoted as a treatment for many diseases due to evidence from observational studies, but hundreds of millions of dollars in randomized controlled trials have never demonstrated it to be effective for any disease except rickets. There was just a large trial published in JAMA [1] examining its effectiveness for depression given solid observational data. It was not at all effective. The rea…

We are wasting our time and money looking at Vitamin D again and again and again.

I seriously doubt that because I think exactly what it does is poorly understood. But we do know that people with cystic fibrosis have serious compromised immune function and, among other things, see terrible, deadly lung infections (and account for a large percentage of lung transplants).

Some of the remarks in this discussion have been helpful to me and I've spent nearly two decades -- ever since my diagnosis in May 2001 -- trying to understand my condition.

New information comes out all the time and new tidbits that are reasonably verifiable as true become building blocks for more complex mental models. I am just beginning to understand things I've been squirreling information away about for a lot of years with a keen interest because my life literally depended upon such understanding.

I have kind of "bookmarked" this discussion, in part to get me ready access to the article it covers. I'm short of sleep today and not following things well and this piece is piquing my curiosity in ways that most discussions of vitamin D fail to do.

I think this is an exciting era in which to be alive if you have a mystery illness that they don't really know how to fix. The amount of information available at your fingertips while literally laying in bed, too sick to get up, overwhelms what I could find at a library as a child. It is game changing in ways that most people seem to fail to appreciate.

Re: Vitamin D deficiency and Covid-19 mortality [pdf]

#188

Post by elcritch » Wed, Aug 05, 2020, 11:42 PM UTC

devaboone wrote: post #155

mellosouls wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without a reference to go by a quick Google indicates toxicity is only likely by taking far above recommended levels (max recommended is 4000iu daily) for an extended period. Presumably people on those kind of doses are taking it under medical supervision, or are idiots/under the control of idiots. I am not a doctor, but without further information it seems that as ever, following the guidance on legit supplies speci…

There are some very vocal people who argue that the risk of toxicity is very low. The studies aren't great. But for most people, taking a moderate dose of Vitamin D will be safe. Unfortunately, I have treated many patients who come to me with high calcium levels due to taking Vitamin D. They do not have parathyroid disease (I have treated thousands of patients with parathyroid disease). They have simply been taking h…

It makes sense many doctors, especially general practitioners, would forget or not know about the Vitamin D/Calcium link. However, wouldn't a doctor prescribing a large dose of Vitamin D take at least yearly standard set of blood tests too that would include calcium levels? Then again, that's assuming there's a fairly standard set of blood tests to check for imbalances of this kind. Also, it seems odd there isn't a standard procedure for prescribing Vit D that included "check calcium levels".

Re: Vitamin D deficiency and Covid-19 mortality [pdf]

#189

Post by fizixer » Wed, Aug 05, 2020, 11:42 PM UTC

andy_ppp wrote: post #156

devaboone wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi, I'm the wife. High dose Vitamin D can cause elevated calcium levels (meaning over 10.0 mg/dl for adults over 40, it can be a little higher for younger adults). I usually don't see that occur with doses at 2-3 K IU daily. You can also check your Vitamin D 25-OH levels (the level that will be done if you just get a standard "Vitamin D level") and these should be in a reasonable range. What constitutes reasonable ma…

If taking Vitamin D do you recommend Magnesium and K2 as well, as I understand it these need to be in balance?

I don't know if K supplementation helps with calcium levels, but you don't need magnesium supplementation as long you have half-decent diet.

There is plenty of magnesium in foods.

Re: Vitamin D deficiency and Covid-19 mortality [pdf]

#190

Post by devaboone » Wed, Aug 05, 2020, 11:50 PM UTC

r0fl wrote: post #180

devaboone wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people can tolerate Vitamin D levels above 50, so I wouldn't set that as an absolute cutoff - a Vitamin D in the 50s is good for many people, but I definitely don't want to see it above 70. Taking a higher dose for a short period of time is completely acceptable, as long as it doesn't become something that you stay on for years. It is really hard, if not impossible, to get toxic levels of Vitamin D solely from t…

What is a “not low dose” of vitamin D? Would 5000iU a day still be low? 10,000iu? Is it really possible to have enough vitamin d exposure just from diet for someone who lives in a northern state which doesn’t get nearly as many sunny days as a place like florida or california?

5000 IU is high dose. 10,000 is really high. A more moderate dose would be 1000 to 2000 daily. If you live in a northern state, your Vitamin D level will vary with season. And with increased use of sunscreen (which is a good thing), it can be hard to get enough Vitamin D. I'm not opposed to anyone taking Vitamin D (I take it actually). I just want people to take it in moderation unless there is a very clear reason for taking high doses (and there are indications for that).