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ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

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Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#181

Post by iheartblocks »

edanm wrote: post #174

I recently bought and Ergodox-EZ, after previously getting my first mechanical keyboard (the Ultimate Hacking Keyboard, which I love). I'm not a huge fan of it. So far, it seems like it's been a lot of work relearning habits, for little gain. But oddly enough, my biggest gripe with the Ergodox isn't something I've heard people complain about - the lack of an extra column of keys on the right part. Basically, on a nor…

I also currently use (and love) the Ultimate Hacking Keyboard. How well does the thumb cluster work on the EZ?

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#182

Post by jtdressel »

simonebrunozzi wrote: post #177

$365 for a keyboard? Not sure I really need something like this for that price.

You probably don't, they are certainly not for everyone.

I have two of the earlier keyboards (ergodox ez). I gladly paid the price because it makes me more comfortable. I find it similar to a nice monitor or chair.

I don't know if my performance is better, but it's a nice piece of gear that's a joy to use.

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#183

Post by azinman2 »

SloopJon wrote: post #94
rkagerer wrote: post #6

Neat! If you're interested in this kind of thing, I recommend also checking out the Kinesis Advantage.

I used a Kinesis Advantage for a few years before switching to the Kinesis Freestyle Edge RGB. My main complaint about the Advantage is that I kept hitting the arrow buttons in the bottom row unintentionally. Partly poor typing form, I'm sure, and of course I could have remapped them. The other thing is that the Advantage is tall, so it's not great up on a desk, and it's not that comfortable on your lap. I think it's…

I have an advantage as well, and I've never accidentally hit the arrow keys or any other keys to be honest. How are you doing so? They're in a pretty out of the way location if you let your hands rest on the home row.

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#184

Post by victoriasun »

cfontes wrote: post #157
wdgz wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to think the same way as you. Then I got RSI and the only thing I can type on now without excruciating pain is my $250+ ergonomic keyboard. The other day I typed a short password on my Corsair gaming keyboard (standard layout, full size) and I literally sprained my left wrist immediately. Honestly, after how much money I’ve spent trying to deal with my RSI (doctors, exams, physical therapy, home workout items…

Good to know! Fair point!

FWIW, I think the commentary around pricing is totally valid. Ergo keyboards are absurdly expensive; not everyone can drop the necessary 2 to 400 USD to acquire one of these. I don't know the economics but I'm sure part of it is driven by demand; there's a lot less people concerned with ergonomics than there should be, so no one's really incentivized to figure out how to mass produce these.

I would love it when an entry level ergo keyboard could be had for under 50.

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#185

Post by azinman2 »

noelwelsh wrote: post #56
mellavora wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I love my Kinesis. Looks line ZSA is borrowing Kinesis's idea of putting a number of special keys into a "thumb-bar". Not sure if Kinesis actually invented that idea, but I think they were the first to bring it to market. And yes, the Moonlander looks very interesting!

I believe Maltron did it first and Kinesis stole the idea from them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maltron Maltron keyboards are excellent but expensive and hard to source, particularly outside of the UK.

I've had both and the kinesis def feels more solid. The Maltron probably came up with the original design, and they're great for that, but the keys of the Kinesis feel better/sturdier. I've had to resolder connections in the Maltron several times; luckily its easy to do... they're just unshielded wires going everywhere!

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#186

Post by edanm »

iheartblocks wrote: post #181
edanm wrote: post #174

I recently bought and Ergodox-EZ, after previously getting my first mechanical keyboard (the Ultimate Hacking Keyboard, which I love). I'm not a huge fan of it. So far, it seems like it's been a lot of work relearning habits, for little gain. But oddly enough, my biggest gripe with the Ergodox isn't something I've heard people complain about - the lack of an extra column of keys on the right part. Basically, on a nor…

I also currently use (and love) the Ultimate Hacking Keyboard. How well does the thumb cluster work on the EZ?

That's what most people complain about, and rightly so in my opinion - it has 1/2 useable keys, the others can be used but you have to reposition your hand.

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#187

Post by victoriasun »

edanm wrote: post #174

I recently bought and Ergodox-EZ, after previously getting my first mechanical keyboard (the Ultimate Hacking Keyboard, which I love). I'm not a huge fan of it. So far, it seems like it's been a lot of work relearning habits, for little gain. But oddly enough, my biggest gripe with the Ergodox isn't something I've heard people complain about - the lack of an extra column of keys on the right part. Basically, on a nor…

Those far keys are usually triggered by your weakest fingers -- return, for example, is triggered via your pinky and can often require you to stretch your pinky (and ulnar nerve) in unergonomic ways, leading to Cubital Tunnel Syndrome.

I find that a good introductory layout to this kind of keyboard is the Kinesis Advantage 2 [1]. As you can see a bunch of common keypresses usually delegated to the pinkies have been set on the thumb clusters. On my Ergodox, I also have symbols layers that allow you to reach common symbols without moving my fingers significantly from the home row. It definitely takes an adjustment period but my RSI definitely thinks its worth it!

[1] http://xahlee.info/kbd/kinesis_keyboard_howto.html

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#188

Post by egypturnash »

ghufran_syed wrote: post #86
egypturnash wrote: post #84

Hyper is Ctrl+Shift+Alt+Win/Cmd, while Meh is Ctrl+Shift+Alt. No sane application on your machine uses these, which means you get free system-wide shortcuts. Ugh I wish Illustrator would let me use these, it only lets me assign shortcuts to cmd, cmd-shift, cmd-alt, and cmd-alt-shift. I would be so happy if I could add ctrl I to the mix, I have about thirty keypresses left unassigned and they are all kind of terrible…

What OS do you use? Could you use something like Karabiner on OSX, I'm not an expert but I think it allows you to map arbitrary key combinations to other key combinations that the program will accept

I'm on OSX and am already using Karabiner to remap capslock to cmd-alt-shift and fn to cmd-alt! The problem is that Illustrator only has so many key combinations I can set up, and I have all but thirty of them allocated.

I suppose I could do something terrible like have Quicksilver grab shortcuts that involved control and make it press menu items for me, I already have a couple of keypresses that invoke scripts to make AI do things that way, but that has complications like "now my key shortcuts are managed in two places" and "some of these shortcuts don't show up in the menus, which makes things complicated when I am doing a less-frequently-used shortcut".

(Now that I think about it I could maybe solve the second issue with OSX's keyboard shortcuts settings... oh, nope, "you cannot add keyboard shortcuts for the application Adobe Illustrator 2020". Also I'd have to remake them every time there was an update that changed the name.)

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#189

Post by sixothree »

tom_ wrote: post #76

I wish people would just copy the MS Natural Ergonomic 4000, but with better keyswitches. As things stand, every split keyboard with nice keyswitches has a different layout from every other, which is odd, considering how much this type of device relies on muscle memory to work. (Also, most of them miss one or more of F keys, symmetrical meta keys, standard navigation cluster layout, volume buttons - it's like they wa…

I wouldn't mind seeing overlapping keys. Why can't TGBYHN be on _both_ sides of the keyboard...

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#190

Post by phaus »

alxlu wrote: post #179
phaus wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you use now? The Dactyl was partly modeled after the Kinesis. It has the key wells and a curved thumb cluster. Still, the thumb cluster isn't perfect and its hard for most people to reach all of the keys. However, the Dactyl Manuform keeps the amazing key wells and has a completely redesigned thumb cluster. Its also designed to be easily customizable. There are versions with 2,3,4,5 and 6 keys per thumb clust…

I ended up going with the Logitech ergonomic keyboard. It’s honestly not that different than a regular keyboard but it does the job. Thanks for letting me know about dactyl though! For some reason that one flew under my radar. I guess I kinda gave up spending time looking for a perfect solution after I decided the Kinesis wasn’t working for me, but it looks like something that might work for me.

I realized I might have worded the above in a confusing way. You may have already understood in spite of that just in case there are 2 primary families of Dactyl keyboards, the Dactyl, and the Dactyl Manuform. The Manuform version has the better thumb cluster IMO.
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