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Facebook's employees reckon with the social network they've built

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Re: Facebook's employees reckon with the social network they've built

#181

Post by pandaman »

acdha wrote: post #46
Nextgrid wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The other problem is that the business model of social media is based on generating "engagement" at all costs, so the platforms are built to encourage outrage as it generates lots of engagement, among other addictive behaviors (the infinite "algorithmic" feed for example). Social media was supposed to be a tool that serves people but its current business model encourages it to work against people. There were plenty o…

> There were plenty of other technologies that could've been used to organize large-scale virtual fight clubs (forums, BBSes, chatrooms, maybe even the telephone) but this didn't happen because nobody actually wanted to foster such toxic behavior. “Nobody” is leaving out some pretty notorious sources of toxicity (e.g. 4chan). I think a key difference is that these huge platforms dramatically increase the reach of tho…

You could say that some topics discussed on 4chan are "toxic" but is the discussion in general also toxic? There are no cliques, no friends and foes, no flame wars, just a background level of ad-hominem (i.e. very formalized and short phrases used to express disagreement with the message in the form of ad-hominem). There is no point in slinging insults at other users and no "honor" to protect - everyone is anonymous, there is no identity, not even a pseudonym or post history. It's incredible how much of the discussion (on-line and in real life) is about asserting one's status and preventing others from asserting theirs. Anonymous image boards are free from this.

Re: Facebook's employees reckon with the social network they've built

#182

Post by Balgair »

Nextgrid wrote: post #18
creato wrote: post #7

I feel like all of this debate is painfully missing the point. The problem is not some content moderation policy, the problem is that social media has changed social conversations from small local interactions into monstrous virtual fight clubs between millions of people simultaneously, and where the most extreme opinions are rewarded with the most attention. Boring level headed opinions used to at least have a chanc…

The other problem is that the business model of social media is based on generating "engagement" at all costs, so the platforms are built to encourage outrage as it generates lots of engagement, among other addictive behaviors (the infinite "algorithmic" feed for example). Social media was supposed to be a tool that serves people but its current business model encourages it to work against people. There were plenty o…

> The other problem is that the business model of social media is based on generating "engagement" at all costs (emphasis my own)

Well, FB and the like have been bringing the ban hammer out a fair bit. Most recently was the QAnon kiddos.

If they really were keeping engagement up at all costs then banning a lot of accounts and dumping all that hand-wringing would be a strange thing to do time and time again.

Re: Facebook's employees reckon with the social network they've built

#183

Post by zarkov99 »

flixic wrote: post #56
dvt wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think the idea is we need diversity in online social media. I'd like to see human editors come back. People have tried. Either highly-moderated networks or "middle of the line" media. Other than a few exceptions (Real Clear Politics comes to mind), they've all failed. It's unfortunately clear that people don't want this.

That's the key insight. It's not Facebook's or Twitter's decisions that have lead to a divisive discourse. It's that given an option to express themselves on social media, people like expressing strong tribalism the most. And then, all you need is to add even a hint of recommendation engine boosting more engaging content to the top (a very reasonable idea, heck, HN does that) and you have a vicious cycle.

Yes, but that is a feature of the human race which is exacerbated, when it should be sublimated, by the way that FB works. Long, thoughtful posts are discouraged through lack of proper editing tools, deep narcissism is nurtured via "likes", algorithms target the lizard brain rather than the neocortex. Agency in controlling your feed is minimized. FB encourages, manipulates and monetizes our worst instincts. I hope that the fine people working there can make some changes when they finally save enough money to buy back their conscience.

Re: Facebook's employees reckon with the social network they've built

#184

Post by justapassenger »

koheripbal wrote: post #39

This long article doesnt address the most critical point. If employees have an ethical issue with working there, why don't they quit? This isn't a new dillemma. People working for tabacco companies have always been in the same boat.

Majority of people stay there. It's likely for one of 2 reasons: 1. They're morally bankrupt and prefer $ 2. This is very complex issue, and there's no simple right or wrong solution.

Re: Facebook's employees reckon with the social network they've built

#185

Post by room505 »

I used to have a Facebook account and deleted it in 2009-2010. This is just me brainstorming, but would it make sense to have to submit a photocopy of your ID card to create a real name account for such a huge company, for the sake of creating something of a safe online forum/community? I would think people would be more responsible with what they post. I had done so for OfferUp, which to me, makes sense because people need to have a sense of safety and security when interacting with each other. I'd like to hear what others think.

Re: Facebook's employees reckon with the social network they've built

#186

Post by KaiserPro »

koheripbal wrote: post #39

This long article doesnt address the most critical point. If employees have an ethical issue with working there, why don't they quit? This isn't a new dillemma. People working for tabacco companies have always been in the same boat.

$1.5 million dollars.

Re: Facebook's employees reckon with the social network they've built

#188

Post by moon2 »

room505 wrote: post #185

I used to have a Facebook account and deleted it in 2009-2010. This is just me brainstorming, but would it make sense to have to submit a photocopy of your ID card to create a real name account for such a huge company, for the sake of creating something of a safe online forum/community? I would think people would be more responsible with what they post. I had done so for OfferUp, which to me, makes sense because peop…

Brazilian government actually wanted to do it recently, require companies such as Facebook to require that you submit your ID and that you link a phone number to your account. [1] It sure makes things easier for the authorities, since they are also dealing with fake news and hate speech. However, it goes against the LGPD (like a Brazilian version of the GDPR). And it is hard to trust a company such as Facebook to keep data such as your ID. How can you be sure if they're keeping this data safe? How can you be sure they won't sell it?

[1] https://www.uol.com.br/tilt/noticias/redacao/2020/06/24/face... (in Portuguese)

Re: Facebook's employees reckon with the social network they've built

#189

Post by KaiserPro »

The thing that annoys the living shit out of me are two fold:

1) the content policy for the public is clear, well thought out and easy to understand. but that doesn't apply to politicians. The rules that apply to politicians is hidden, opaque and taken on the fly.

2) the moral compass of the leadership team is fundamentally blinkered and naive. They do not understand or seem to want to understand viewpoints of other people. Unless you are posh & rich and upper middle class, you have to battle really hard to get your point across.

Re: Facebook's employees reckon with the social network they've built

#190

Post by pwdisswordfish2 »

creato wrote: post #7

I feel like all of this debate is painfully missing the point. The problem is not some content moderation policy, the problem is that social media has changed social conversations from small local interactions into monstrous virtual fight clubs between millions of people simultaneously, and where the most extreme opinions are rewarded with the most attention. Boring level headed opinions used to at least have a chanc…

One of the canned responses we have observed Zuckerberg make to the media in response has been something along the lines of "Facebook gives people who would not otherwise have a voice a chance to be heard" (words are mine, not theirs).

The web already did that. By advocating that the world use only a single website to "speak", we allowed a single website owner to create a business by charging its users for the opportunity to publish their "speech" to segments of the website's audience.

The reason most of those millions of people "joined" Facebook was not to voice their opinions to an audience. It was to communicate with family and friends. A new mode of communication.

If those people who wanted to voice their opinions to audiences had their own websites, who would visit them? Would they have an audience of millions?

(The term "millions" is used here as an expression for "many", not as an accurate estimate of the numbers in question)

I have heard that there is talk in the US media of doing away with the US Postal Service. AKA Ye Olde Mode of Communication. It is unsettling how far things have come in eroding the American's right to be free from commercial or ideological pandering. There used to be a legally recognised principle that an American could say "No more", and then the pandering must stop. Try that with Facebook or any other "tech" company.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PS_Form_1500

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rowan_v._United_States_Post_Of...

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