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Why general artificial intelligence will not be realized

nature.com

181–190 of 403 posts

Re: Why general artificial intelligence will not be realized

#181

> In the book [Dreyfus] argued that an important part of human knowledge is tacit. Therefore, it cannot be articulated and implemented in a computer program. [...] [...] [...] These skills cannot just be learned from textbooks. They are acquired by instruction from someone who knows the trade. This is a classic example of the Mind Projection Fallacy [1], where a property of how you think is assumed to be a property o…

The point isn't bike riding. Bike riding is an example of a class of problems, and your solution begs the question.

The point is that humans and computers operate differently. The human approach is based on adaptive experiential heuristics.

The computer approach is based on explicit formalism. (Even in neural networks, there's still a formal model. It's just made of weightings instead of logic paths.)

The epistemology of these approaches is completely different. The problem isn't getting a computer to ride a bike, it's getting a computer to learn to ride a bike how a human learns.

Why would anyone do this? Because adaptive experiential heuristics are far more flexible and generalisable than explicit formalisms. And - it suggests here - you can't have real AGI without them.

So the problem then becomes unpicking what "adaptive" and "experiential" really mean. Both rely on huge accumulations of tacit knowledge and tacit motivations.

If this isn't obvious, consider that a human child will learn how to ride a bike and then go and have a lot of fun with it. An ideal bike-riding computer doesn't even have a concept of fun.

The human experience of fun is a complex system of experimentation, exploration, reward, and challenge, combined with physical, emotional, and mental correlates.

This matters because play in childhood helps develop the heuristics that adults use for problem solving, and for personal motivation and satisfaction.

Even more simply, the problem is the difference between building a workable but dumb bike riding machine and building a machine that will improvise bike riding as a goal for itself, will "enjoy" the experience, and will generalise from that to mastery of other domains.

Re: Why general artificial intelligence will not be realized

#182

Here is, to me, the relevant line: "Hubert Dreyfus, who argued that computers, who have no body, no childhood and no cultural practice, could not acquire intelligence at all. One of Dreyfus’ main arguments was that human knowledge is partly tacit, and therefore cannot be articulated and incorporated in a computer program. " I have not read the rest of the article but in the introduction it's stated: "The article furt…

>So the main argument is that humans have intelligence that is impossible to express through reason or codification. In other words, humans have a literal soul, divorced from physical world

No, in other words, humans have tactile, empirical, emotional, social, etc intelligence that is perfectly physical but not available to mere software in a computer.

It might be available to software running in humanoid robots, that can see, walk around, hang with other humans to learn, etc.

But even in that case, it won't be codified in any axiomatic way "through reason". Think more of neural networks and less of an 1960s AI program...

Re: Why general artificial intelligence will not be realized

#183

Here is, to me, the relevant line: "Hubert Dreyfus, who argued that computers, who have no body, no childhood and no cultural practice, could not acquire intelligence at all. One of Dreyfus’ main arguments was that human knowledge is partly tacit, and therefore cannot be articulated and incorporated in a computer program. " I have not read the rest of the article but in the introduction it's stated: "The article furt…

We think things that aren't computable. Probabilistic quantum nature of superposition. But I don't think that means that "Turing machines" can't have AGI.

What I think what the article is talking about, is the idea that AGI must be embodied. That a widely unrecognized aspect of HI is its embodiment (read The Power of not thinking), and that without a body machines cannot be in the world, and therefore cannot have AGI.

I tend to think however that machine AGI will be possible even without putting them in robot bodies. They already have their own world, the internet. Just get them to explore that with a virtual analogy of a body. Worth a try anyway.

Re: Why general artificial intelligence will not be realized

#184

Here is, to me, the relevant line: "Hubert Dreyfus, who argued that computers, who have no body, no childhood and no cultural practice, could not acquire intelligence at all. One of Dreyfus’ main arguments was that human knowledge is partly tacit, and therefore cannot be articulated and incorporated in a computer program. " I have not read the rest of the article but in the introduction it's stated: "The article furt…

That's a bit of a straw-man. It does not follow that the existence of knowledge that isn't derived from formal principles of reasoning proves the existence of a soul.

Re: Why general artificial intelligence will not be realized

#185

Here is, to me, the relevant line: "Hubert Dreyfus, who argued that computers, who have no body, no childhood and no cultural practice, could not acquire intelligence at all. One of Dreyfus’ main arguments was that human knowledge is partly tacit, and therefore cannot be articulated and incorporated in a computer program. " I have not read the rest of the article but in the introduction it's stated: "The article furt…

You are taking huge liberties in forming equivocations which mislead your conclusion.

The tacit knowledge description only talks about the acquisition process of the knowledge, not that the knowledge itself is outside bounds of rationality or the physical world. By the same token when you claim "humans have intelligence that is impossible to express through reason or codification" the entire argument hinges on the actual meaning of impossible. Is it impossible in itself, or ever, because human intelligence is non-reason based or are we using a meaning of impossible that at this day and age the process of doing that is still intractable for all intents and purposes. If you're claiming the former, that itself is such a strong claim it requires its own strong proof. If it's the latter, well we have been developing psychotechnologies for several millennia to be able to express ourselves and our cognitive processes and getting better at it, you just need to be patient.

If you found a working x86 chip in the wild, but all documentation and knowledgeable people were wiped out for some reason, I bet the process of finding out how that x86 worked would look quite similar. It wouldn't make x86 otherworldly or in need of a soul.

Re: Why general artificial intelligence will not be realized

#186
post #55
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As long as all those reals are computable ;) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computable_number

It's fully possible for a computer to do symbolic math without reducing the symbols to a decimal.

Of course! I meant my comment to be tongue in cheek, but saying that some numbers are uncomputable is not incompatible with symbolic math on a computer. Note that for example Pi is computable, despite having an infinite decimal expansion.

Re: Why general artificial intelligence will not be realized

#187

Here is, to me, the relevant line: "Hubert Dreyfus, who argued that computers, who have no body, no childhood and no cultural practice, could not acquire intelligence at all. One of Dreyfus’ main arguments was that human knowledge is partly tacit, and therefore cannot be articulated and incorporated in a computer program. " I have not read the rest of the article but in the introduction it's stated: "The article furt…

I have a perspective on this, since I took a rather engaging philosophy class from the late Prof Dreyfus at Berkeley.

As the article hints at, his line of argument was a completely valid criticism of AI based on a set of rules written with symbolic logic. He arrived at this conclusion after studying Heidegger's concept of dasein. The best way to describe dasein is through a classic example [1]:

"...the hammer is involved in an act of hammering; that hammering is involved in making something fast; and that making something fast is involved in protecting the human agent against bad weather. Such totalities of involvements are the contexts of everyday equipmental practice. As such, they define equipmental entities, so the hammer is intelligible as what it is only with respect to the shelter and, indeed, all the other items of equipment to which it meaningfully relates in Dasein's everyday practices. "

In Heidegger's mind, meaning is distributed across the web of interrelationships between objects and their various uses and ideas to humans. Intelligence was thus a process of knowing those relationships, and being a part of them. Being-in-the-world (dasein is a German word related to 'being') is a result of us as humans being 'thrown' into the web of meaning, in fact we are born already finding ourselves in it.

Dreyfus' objections to AI stemmed from the idea that computers are thrown into the world differently from us. They are the hammer in the anecdote, and not the human. During the class, we argued a lot with him about whether humans are the only creatures that have 'being-in-the-world'. We asked about the idea of the soul, and why humans are unique in this paradigm. My feeling after the end was that his entire philosophy comes directly from Heidegger. And since Heidegger didn't mention animals, or the lack of souls, his conclusion was "dunno".

Related to this, Dreyfus had an understanding of physics that was quite antiquated and classical. One example was the concept of time. According to Dreyfus, the physicists' notion of time was a series of discrete observations along a timeline, whereas humans experience time in stretches and long segments. I remember telling him that the notion of a single instant of time is poorly defined in quantum physics, and that we do recognize that every event has some time uncertainty. I remember asking him why we couldn't model human experience with some complicated function. For him, everything came back to Heidegger. To him, we physicists were being too reductionist, and there is indeed something about humans that cannot be described using physics. He stopped shy of calling it a soul, but it was essentially that.

[ETA: I now remember talking to him about Conway's game of life, and how a simple set of rules could result in complex, often hard to model behavior. My point was emergent systems exist within physics, and the way we describe them is different from single particles. His reply suggested that he was certain that human experience wasn't just 'emergent' - it was fundamentally different from anything in physics, no matter what.]

The class was on physics vs philosophy, and we disagreed. I don't think he really understood what I was trying to tell him. This was in 2013, before most of the deep learning revolution, but I think he would have the same objections with what we have now. Here are two possible directions we can go from here:

1) Argue with continental philosophers about reductionism and whether humans have a unique essence that cannot be modeled.

2) Understand Heidegger's and Dreyfus' thoughts about being and time, and drive AI research in better directions.

I prefer (2), because I already tried (1) with Dreyfus and it wasn't successful or productive.

I think understanding and modeling the graph of inter-relationships between objects and humans is exactly where we need to improve when it comes to AGI. It's probably going to need a good degree of embodiedness, an idea of a computer being thrown-into-the-world. Dreyfus would tell us that it's fundamentally impossible, and that we should all just give up on it. I think he came to the wrong conclusion. What I get from Heidegger is not "AGI is impossible" but rather "hey, this is what we should be worrying about. This is how humans see the world".

TLDR: Dreyfus had some good ideas about AI. I think it's extremely insightful to pay attention his thoughts. Don't waste time worrying about his arguments against physicalism.

[1] https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/heidegger/

Re: Why general artificial intelligence will not be realized

#188
This article is a muddled, ridiculous mess. I read the first few paragraphs and couldn't motivate myself to do any more than skim the rest. As far as I can tell, there's nothing new here, and the author's argument that "AGI will not be realized" might be true if you stick to his ad-hoc definition of AGI, which seems to conflate "human level" intelligence and "human like" intelligence.

Yes, it's probably true that AI's will not have "human like" intelligence, for some of the reasons cited. Lack of embodiment and the associated experiential learning is the chief reason that I would personally cite for why this is true. However, that line of reasoning is completely irrelevant unless A. make the mistake of conflating "human like" and "human level" OR B. you very specifically demand that your AI must be "human like."

Everybody else realizes that the goal is to build an AI that is as general as human intelligence, not necessarily to build an artificial human.

Edit:

To go back to the embodiment issue for a moment... I think embodiment is important. I've been playing around with building a trivial little shell to pack some AI research in, that can be carried around (initially), and "experience" the world via a variety of different sensors. And I do think, again, that embodiment will probably be necessary to get an AGI that can "act human". I just don't see that as being the goal. Yeah, yeah, Turing Test, blah, blah, I know. As much respect as I have for Turing (and it's a lot, obviously) I don't actually consider the Turing Test to be very interesting, vis-a-vis evaluating an AI. In fact, I think focusing on it could be harmful, because it seems that getting an AI to pass it amounts to teaching the AI to lie well. This seems counter-productive to me.

As for why I think embodiment would matter to making a "human like" (as opposed to "human level") AGI: it mainly comes down to experiential learning. Imagine, if you will, what you know about the meaning of terms like "fall", or "fall down". How much of your knowledge of this is rooted in that fact that you, in your body, have fallen down? And how does that play into your ability to construct metaphors involving other things "falling"? And so on.

But I don't think any of this stuff is necessary to make an AGI that can operate at a human level of generality and solve useful problem on our behalf. And by "operate at a human level of generality" I mean something approximately like "the same AI software, with appropriate training, can do anything from playing chess, to driving a car, to coming up with new theories in physics and chemistry (and so on).

Re: Why general artificial intelligence will not be realized

#189

Here is, to me, the relevant line: "Hubert Dreyfus, who argued that computers, who have no body, no childhood and no cultural practice, could not acquire intelligence at all. One of Dreyfus’ main arguments was that human knowledge is partly tacit, and therefore cannot be articulated and incorporated in a computer program. " I have not read the rest of the article but in the introduction it's stated: "The article furt…

You are taking huge liberties in forming equivocations which mislead your conclusion. The tacit knowledge description only talks about the acquisition process of the knowledge, not that the knowledge itself is outside bounds of rationality or the physical world. By the same token when you claim "humans have intelligence that is impossible to express through reason or codification" the entire argument hinges on the ac…

This is a good point, but I will add, from close discussions with Dreyfus, his position was that it's impossible because it's fundamentally impossible, not because it's intractable. (see my other comment for more)

Re: Why general artificial intelligence will not be realized

#190
post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So build a body.

I don't see why they need the same 5 or more senses we have. Self-driving cars have rudimentary visual input, proximity sensors, location data, and other inputs.

Right. In what way is a human embodied but not a self driving car.
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