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There is now a European standard for measuring how easy it is to repair stuff

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Re: There is now a European standard for measuring how easy it is to repair stuff

#181

Post by stiray »

_ph_ wrote: post #24

Whenever repairability of modern electronic devices is discussed, I have to look at my mechanical wristwatch. Yes, there is an enormeous amount of technology integrated into a smartphone or compact laptop, but my wristwatch contains over 100 moving parts in a tiny volume. And still, every trained watchmaker can open and service it. It requires specialized tools, but those have been avialable to watchmakers for hundre…

Let me tell you a story. 4 Samsung smart TV models bought as a "pack" to bring down the price. Me and 3 friends bought them. 3 of them died in 5-6 years. One was just replaced with larger one but still works.

Difference? First 3 were connected to internet, last one, mine, was on stock firmware, never connected anywhere (I have computer near it and lately raspberry pi 4).

Coincidence?

Re: There is now a European standard for measuring how easy it is to repair stuff

#182

Post by zepto »

_ph_ wrote: post #24

Whenever repairability of modern electronic devices is discussed, I have to look at my mechanical wristwatch. Yes, there is an enormeous amount of technology integrated into a smartphone or compact laptop, but my wristwatch contains over 100 moving parts in a tiny volume. And still, every trained watchmaker can open and service it. It requires specialized tools, but those have been avialable to watchmakers for hundre…

Rolex’s cost upwards of $6000.

Mechanical watch functionality evolves extremely slowly - over generations, not years.

Competent Watch repair of actual high end watches is an extremely difficult skill to master taking years.

Read watch forums - repair is often botched.

Computers are almost always redundant before they need repairing, whereas a mechanical watch can last generations, therefore a far higher percentage will need repair.

Watches are not recyclable.

Rolex is an exception. Watches in the price range of computers are mostly electronic and are in fact less repairable than computers in general or any Apple device.

There is literally nothing about this analogy with watch repair that applies to computers.

Also, there is simply nothing to support the hypothesis that Apple makes devices intentionally hard to repair.

They offer good warranties, and a lot of people buy AppleCare.

It is therefore in Apple’s interest to make devices economic to both repair and/or recycle when replaced.

Furthermore Apple has stated that it is their strategy to maximize the useful life of their devices (presumably so they can continue to sell services to users who don’t need new devices).

Increasing the device life is not the same as making it repairable.

Many things that make a device easier to repair, also make it more likely to fail.

People who demand repairability without taking this into account may well be harming the environment, and economically disadvantaged users without realizing it.

Re: There is now a European standard for measuring how easy it is to repair stuff

#183

Post by xxs »

cheesecracker wrote: post #171
xxs wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not sure what kind of point you are attempting to make: the amount of transistors in an IC hardly matters. No one repairs individual transistors. The chips/IC can be replaced and many ICs are not much more expensive than the cogs in the watch. Ofc, there are billions of transistors in a phone - that doesn't mean anything at all. Repeatability depends on being able to open a device/tool non-destructively, being a…

Pretty sure they save materials, time to assemble and "space" by gluing instead of using replacable parts. I guess your theory is that it is all malice by the manufacturers?

If was time to assemble they would have not been inventions like pentalobe and 'secure' torx screws. If you have seen a pcb with just an IC (chip) potted in epoxy, you'd know the sole reason for.

Glue has its own issues including degrading with temperature - which doesn't really happen to bolts/nuts/screws.

The specific standard would hopefully begin to address the issue with throwaway culture and planned obsolesce (there is min 2y warranty in the EU for all electronic goods, though). I dont care if a company save less than 1euro, making something that costs hundreds/thousands virtually useless for any minor ceramic capacitor that fails.

Re: There is now a European standard for measuring how easy it is to repair stuff

#184

Post by fsflover »

buzzerbetrayed wrote: post #180
fsflover wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Although you are right and this is a problem, android does not in general claim to be climate-friendly, while Apple does.

Well according to the list you posted, they seem to be the most climate friendly mass smart phone producer on the planet. Perhaps they deserve the title.

This is a weird defense. They are certainly able to do better with their resources unlike e.g. Fairphone.

Re: There is now a European standard for measuring how easy it is to repair stuff

#185

Post by marcosdumay »

switch007 wrote: post #15
apexalpha wrote: post #10

Let's hope this catches on just like the energy labels did. After the EU forced manufacturers to improve energy use in their devices it soon improved situations for everyone on this planet. Many other countries follow EU regulations directly or indirectly so let's hope for some easily repairable products in the future!

> After the EU forced manufacturers to improve energy use in their devices it soon improved situations for everyone on this planet. I don't know (talking as fairly pro-EU kind of person). I kind liked washing machines that properly heated to 90C and vacuum cleaners that actually picked up dirt. But the EU are only partly to blame. Companies are relentless in their pursuit of cutting production costs. Going "green" ju…

I don't think I ever used the hot water functionality of my washing machine, and I can't imagine what you'd want to wash at 90°C, but ok...

When I brought my washing machine, I made sure it had a proper barrel mixer and properly filled with water. That means it's not on the top green category, it's two pegs lower. Yet, it existed, and those weren't the only hidden features I had to compare anyway. When I brought my vacuum cleaner, I made sure it had proper suction. It's also no on the top green category, only near it, but that also didn't make it unavailable.

On the other hand, when I brought my fridge, I made sure it was on the top category, because my interests here were completely aligned with the classification.

Anyway, my point is that informative labels are always great. If you don't want a top performer, just don't get one, the label being there won't harm you.

Re: There is now a European standard for measuring how easy it is to repair stuff

#186

Post by MikusR »

HeyLaughingBoy wrote: post #167
dx034 wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But pretty much all smartphone manufacturers glue parts together. Watchmakers show that it is possible to use screws even with tiny cases that must be waterproof. I believe Apple would be able to create an iPhone with identical specs with no glue used. But it's likely much more expensive to manufacture.

This is the bit that people keep skirting around. No one is intentionally making items hard to repair (at least I have never seen any evidence to suggest it); they're making them easy and cheap to manufacture. And cheap to manufacture often means hard to repair as a side effect. To anyone working with complex industrial devices this isn't a surprise. A good manufacturer will involve their Service people in Manufactur…

Apple is intentionally making things harder to repair. They already have added drm checks to batteries and screens.

Re: There is now a European standard for measuring how easy it is to repair stuff

#187

Post by MikusR »

stiray wrote: post #181
_ph_ wrote: post #24

Whenever repairability of modern electronic devices is discussed, I have to look at my mechanical wristwatch. Yes, there is an enormeous amount of technology integrated into a smartphone or compact laptop, but my wristwatch contains over 100 moving parts in a tiny volume. And still, every trained watchmaker can open and service it. It requires specialized tools, but those have been avialable to watchmakers for hundre…

Let me tell you a story. 4 Samsung smart TV models bought as a "pack" to bring down the price. Me and 3 friends bought them. 3 of them died in 5-6 years. One was just replaced with larger one but still works. Difference? First 3 were connected to internet, last one, mine, was on stock firmware, never connected anywhere (I have computer near it and lately raspberry pi 4). Coincidence?

Were they connected with ethernet cables? A lightning could do it.

Re: There is now a European standard for measuring how easy it is to repair stuff

#188

Post by advisedwang »

wizzwizz4 wrote: post #158
snops wrote: post #8

If anyone wishes to read it or similar European standards, each nation is required to sell it at a price proportional to the average wage, and hence the Estonian standards body is selling it[1] for €14, instead of the £204 the British standards institute wants. [1] https://www.evs.ee/en/evs-en-45554-2020

Alternatively, you could look at the version on the EU website. This article[1] links to the standard[2]. [1]: https://www.cencenelec.eu/news/articles/Pages/AR-2020-008.as... [2]: https://www.cenelec.eu/dyn/www/f?p=104:110:877190265864601::...

As far as I can see that site does not provide a free download.

Re: There is now a European standard for measuring how easy it is to repair stuff

#189

Post by barrkel »

theandrewbailey wrote: post #140
ThePhysicist wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple seems to be one of the worst offenders in terms of repairability of their devices. You can watch e.g. Louis Rossmann's videos on Youtube, he goes into great detail on how Apple tries to make it impossible for anyone except themselves to service their laptops, even going as far as to restrict market suppliers from selling specific microchips (that were not invented by Apple) to anyone but Apple. I imagine this w…

I watched one of Louis' videos[0] yesterday where he doesn't think Apple's ARM transition won't make things harder. He mentions that CPU failure is rare, and replacement CPUs aren't easy to get today, because they are salvaged from other machines, and can't be ordered from places like Newegg or Amazon. Almost all of his repairs involve components that aren't the CPU. [0] https://youtu.be/T_2LnFAGypM?t=175

Switching away from a PC architecture is the issue more than moving to using an ARM CPU in particular.

Re: There is now a European standard for measuring how easy it is to repair stuff

#190

Post by Gibbon1 »

Avamander wrote: post #109
lozenge wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Modern dishwashers don't need prerinsing and aren't tested with prerinsing, you're just using it wrong.

"You're just holding it wrong" It's (potentially mandated) poor design if it's so easy to misuse.

The point is the old lamented machine you couldn't not do it right. Pan encrusted with 3 day old spaghetti sauce? Toss it in and it came out clean. Roommate burned rice in a pot? toss that in after. Comes out clean. Wife's pot and dish with dried mac and cheeze? Yeah also come clean.

And yeah if it was just a light wash you could set it to 'low'

Also that machine I installed in 1995 and it finally died in 2006. Friends buy expensive European machines and invariably some plastic part dies after 6-8 years. Low end machines are worse.

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