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Justice Department to propose limiting internet firms’ Section 230 protections

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181–190 of 195 posts

Re: Justice Department to propose limiting internet firms’ Section 230 protections

#181

Be careful of what you ask for. Section 230 exists because the courts punished Prodigy because they tried to moderate their forums but did it imperfectly, but didn't punish CompuServe because they let anything go. The idea is to allow imperfect moderation in addition to both zero and perfect moderation. The internet without section 230 isn't a bastion of internet freedom. It's 4chan and 8chan. It's a shithole.

I'm okay with imperfect moderation. What I'm not okay with is backdoor untracked political contributions under the guise of imperfect moderation. It feels, to me, that Twitter and Google have given Billions of dollars worth of political censorship/promotion/search bias. Let's get the FEC involved so we can measure and track this political spending.

I'm curious... What dollar value would you place on Twitter contribution to the Trump campaign? They have long failed to enforce their terms of use against Trump's account despite him posting tweets that violate them, despite other accounts that posted the same text verbatim having the tweets removed and/or being banned from the platform.

I can't think of any high-profile liberal politicians who have such a blatant disregard for the rules of the platform, so that must be what you're referring to, right? Or is your contention that rules like "don't use our platform call for violence" are themselves political censorship targeted at conservatives?

Re: Justice Department to propose limiting internet firms’ Section 230 protections

#182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

lawsuits and settlement are not legal liability, they are just sometimes cheaper and better PR to settle.

Read the articles: >in a Wisconsin case, a jury found a Milwaukee gun store liable for selling a gun to a 21-year-old customer...The gun was later used by an 18-year-old to shoot and critically wound two police officers, who were awarded damages by the jury. Jury verdict (legal liability) against the seller of the gun which was used in a murder by someone other than the person they sold it to. FYI: Walmart doesn't se…

>Jury verdict (legal liability) against the seller of the gun

A jury verdict in a different case with different particulars doesn't immediately imply that walmart is guilty. The particulars of both cases matter. Being sued and settling does NOT imply legal liability, and someone else winning a different case is also not legal liability for walmart.

>Jury verdict (legal liability) against the seller of the gun which was used in a murder by someone other than the person they sold it to.

Case particulars matter.

>FYI: Walmart doesn't settle for cost or PR, they settle because of liability.

This is just not true. Walmart does things for PR all the time, including settle lawsuits they know will make them look bad.

Re: Justice Department to propose limiting internet firms’ Section 230 protections

#183
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> some sort of obligation to allow free speech Isn’t that the opposite of what the text of the law says? Doesn’t it provide for protection when moderate content that “one may find objectionable”, which could basically be anything.

The text of the law is a mess: it gives content providers the ability to define whatever moderation policy they want, but also gives objectors the right to sue for punitive damages in the event that they disagree with how it is applied, with their claims being judged by an whether they uphold undefined 'fair dealing standards'. It's not so much an attempt to defend free speech as to bury the affected companies in lit…

I can see how it could be read that way, but are content providers really buried in litigation in practice? I actually don't have much insight here personally, so I'm quite curious.

Re: Justice Department to propose limiting internet firms’ Section 230 protections

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm okay with imperfect moderation. What I'm not okay with is backdoor untracked political contributions under the guise of imperfect moderation. It feels, to me, that Twitter and Google have given Billions of dollars worth of political censorship/promotion/search bias. Let's get the FEC involved so we can measure and track this political spending.

I'm curious... What dollar value would you place on Twitter contribution to the Trump campaign? They have long failed to enforce their terms of use against Trump's account despite him posting tweets that violate them, despite other accounts that posted the same text verbatim having the tweets removed and/or being banned from the platform. I can't think of any high-profile liberal politicians who have such a blatant d…

You might be interested in research by Robert Epstein which calculates how Google search rankings impact votes. He measured how many votes this changed and put some economic value on it.

Here's a quick interview between him and Larry King. His Congressional testimony is also really great, but it's over an hour long. You can find it on Youtube if you're interested. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xS3uETvzZZ0

To put it simply, Google decides who wins every close election. If that's the future you want, where tech oligarchs and/or a rogue lower level employee controls entire elections across the globe, then that's the world you have today.

Trump's tweets are a red herring. I'm not a Trump supporter.

Re: Justice Department to propose limiting internet firms’ Section 230 protections

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm okay with imperfect moderation. What I'm not okay with is backdoor untracked political contributions under the guise of imperfect moderation. It feels, to me, that Twitter and Google have given Billions of dollars worth of political censorship/promotion/search bias. Let's get the FEC involved so we can measure and track this political spending.

This is absolute incoherent nonsense. Are TV networks that air press conferences giving 'untracked political contributions'? Is a network that chooses not to air a particular speech or event giving an 'untracked contribution' in the form of 'political censorship'?

[deleted]

Re: Justice Department to propose limiting internet firms’ Section 230 protections

#186
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure I agree with that framing of the relationship between Section 230 and free speech. For reference, here's the law: > (1) No provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be treated as the publisher or speaker of any information provided by another information content provider. > (2) No provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be held liable on account of— (A)any action volunta…

Yeah, I agree with a lot of that. Especially the point that creating an obligation to protect free speech is, even if a nice value, pragmatically totally impossible to implement. That's sort of what I was trying to say in my original post (poorly I guess): "sure, maybe free speech would be nice, but honestly how? all the medicine seems worse than the cure and this is a sort of fundamentally thorny problem" What do yo…

It's not solely that it's pragmatically impossible - it's that IMO it's not a free speech value. The government should not be in the business of telling private entities, regardless of size, that they are obligated to republish speech they don't agree with. Doing so may be a very important social/cultural norm but it shouldn't be a legal one.

(I think you can carve out a reasonable exception for the fairness doctrine and the equal-time rule for broadcast radio/TV based on the fact that spectrum is limited, and even imperfect attempts by the government at ensuring fair allocation of spectrum are better than none. But the internet is not limited in the same way; anyone can start a discussion forum without a resource allocation from the government. For the same reason, newspapers and magazines don't have anything like the fairness doctrine and never did - for about as long s there have been newspapers, anyone could start a new, competing newspaper, so there was little need to make a rule that everyone had the right to get their articles published in the local newspaper.)

Re a standardized API for keeping Section 230 - I still maintain that ideological neutrality is completely unrelated to Section 230, which is about directing the liability for speech that's already illegal.

Proposals to make Section 230 related to ideological neutrality are about weaponizing the threat of people making illegal speech to coerce websites to do things. I think that's a lot worse as a matter of policy than directly telling the websites what to do, if that's your actual goal.

Here's a thought experiment: suppose you have a group of 1000 honorable people who would never post libel/threats/copyright infringement/whatever. If I run a web forum that's restricted to these people, nothing about Section 230 can impact me, because they're never going to do anything that will incur legal liability for themselves or me. If 500 of those people are pro-abortion-rights and 500 are anti-abortion-rights and I restrict the forum to one of those subsets, that doesn't change the analysis - I'm still not going to be affected.

The only way Section 230 becomes relevant is if a couple of those people are dishonorable (and also boneheaded) and want to post illegal speech. Then they incur liability for themselves, of course, but if I lose Section 230 protections and I fail to moderate their speech, I also incur liability.

But the ability of those people to post illegal speech on my forum is clearly not a public policy goal - their speech is already illegal. Sure, there will always be a few such people in the world, but the law has, until now, taken the opinion that people shouldn't do that. Adding a new law that relies on people continuing this illegal behavior for it to have the right incentive seems like a poor plan: it is a complicated weapon and likely to work poorly in practice too.

If you want to make a rule that large websites cannot operate at all unless they are content-neutral in some definition, do that instead of merely making them subject to legal risk. But then you have to figure out exactly how setting up those rules is compatible with the right of private entities to engage in free speech and association. (And I think having to figure that out is a good thing.)

Re: Justice Department to propose limiting internet firms’ Section 230 protections

#187
post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm experimenting with Markdown in this comment and may edit to reformat links better. Actual comment: Specifically when conservative voices are banned or a voice of any leaning? If a voice, right or left, tweets supporting hate or violence should that be removed with equal prejudice or left in place regardless? If it's a left wing voice posting bannable content 9/10 times, is that unfairly banning/censoring of left…

Can you clarify what you meant with "experimenting with markdown"? (since I see you're not a new user)

Markdown is a common formatting system for github, reddit, and a few other sites. I like how it works so have been looking up more complex how to's and messed around with comments on some sites to see which may support markdown formatting. One thing it lets you do is hyperlink sites where [This would be the link itself](and the actual website goes here) like [Google](www.google.com). That doesn't work here, but I gave it a shot as I've been linking that way on Reddit all week when needed. Markdown is neat, but also a buzzword for simple text formatting.

Re: Justice Department to propose limiting internet firms’ Section 230 protections

#188
post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The text of the law is a mess: it gives content providers the ability to define whatever moderation policy they want, but also gives objectors the right to sue for punitive damages in the event that they disagree with how it is applied, with their claims being judged by an whether they uphold undefined 'fair dealing standards'. It's not so much an attempt to defend free speech as to bury the affected companies in lit…

I can see how it could be read that way, but are content providers really buried in litigation in practice? I actually don't have much insight here personally, so I'm quite curious.

No because have section 230 protections in the first place. They can arbitrarily start playing Mao and banning people for arbitrady undisclosed reasons and it would be legal. That is a major Chesterton's fence.

Re: Justice Department to propose limiting internet firms’ Section 230 protections

#189
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what makes laws like this so silly. Look at how companies split into pieces to avoid corporate tax. They'll simply do the same here. Such a waste of time and effort and it really only affects the small companies which don't have this problem anyway. So dumb.

Yeah all those dumb secretaries, presidents, senators and the people who work for them, they really ought to be reading more HN to learn about how things work. Unless of course any company whose viability materially depends on Section 230 protections would have been dead in the water pretty much in any other jurisdiction on earth in the first place, the threat of moving out of the US was a naked bluff and the powers…

They have a lengthy history of technically illiterate demagoguery and utterly idiotic statements about it while only paying attention to what their lobbyists feed them.

Re: Justice Department to propose limiting internet firms’ Section 230 protections

#190
post #73
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s surreal that a popular Republican position now is: “We want the government to impose giant fines and new regulations on the most successful American businesses of the past decade, hopefully destroying them.” Regardless of the merits of the idea, it’s an amazing paradigm shift for the GOP.

I don't think that is the position. I think they are just tired of a perceived bias against the right by left leaning aggregation organizations compounded with the cancel culture.

It is still their position - that persecution complex is just their rationalization for their hypocrisy and abuse of power.
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