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Do I need to go to university?

colah.github.io

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Re: Do I need to go to university?

#181
post #37

The anti-university sentiment on HN is absolutely alien to me. Not only did I get a lot out of my university education, but it was a totally transformative experience for me. It also enables me to do my job, and I’ve never seen anyone without a good education do it well. Yes, I get that you can be a react developer without a university qualification. This may come as news to some, but most fields bear no resemblance…

I think there are a few additional aspects to this than just a simple anti-university sentiment. This site is very US-centric, which adds a huge monetary component to this decision. That makes this an entirely different question compared to a country where higher education is free. I also think that software development is a field that is quite friendly and attractive to people switching from a different career or fi…

The monetary component has become important in the UK as well.

If I was 18 now I don't think I would go to university. I mentioned this to my father a few weeks ago and he supported this decision.

Re: Do I need to go to university?

#182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're in India (and I'd imagine most other developing countries), getting a degree is one of the most surefire methods of ensuring that you live a good life. It's much less the case in Western countries, especially here in Australia, where tradespeople tend to earn on-par or more than white collar professionals.

Yes! Whenever I hear somebody complaining about the price of a plumber or other trade, I say "Yeah! Where do they get off, wanting to earn a living? Why can't they just live in a van down by the river like their parents?!" I'm perfectly happy to pay a competent trade for good work, at whatever rate gets me out of painting/plumbing/pumping sewage.

I hate the attitude that tradespeople should get paid less than white collar professionals, it takes the same to finish an apprenticeship as a bachelors degree, it's skilled work just as much as computer programming or accounting or law (incidentally the only time I needed a lawyer I would've been better off representing myself, he was literally worse than useless). I pay my barber $35 for a 20 minute haircut, he certainly cuts my hair better than I ever could, and I write code better than he can. We all have our role in society.

A large proportion of professionals are completely incapable of doing the work that tradespeople do, most people can't even replace a tap washer on their own, let alone replace the transmission in their car. It's conceited and elitist to think you're more valuable than somebody else just because you have the luxury of sitting in front of a computer screen all day. It's not even an intelligence thing (which I think shouldn't matter at all), plenty tradespeople are just as clever as programmers or accountants, they just don't want a job that keeps them cooped up in an office all day. Especially when it comes to trades like electricians or plumbers, where you're still diagnosing problems and creating solutions, a good tradie is worth their weight in gold.

Re: Do I need to go to university?

#183
post #139

I went to university. I did not receive any job training at university. It is not design for job training and I did not expect to receive job training. I am not a job. I am not a career. I learned two important things at university that I doubt I could have picked up otherwise. 1. I learned how broad knowledge is. I learned about things I did not even know I did not know about. Some of these things I learned in class…

Wow. This is shamefully elitist. No, you did not need to go to university to learn those two things. There are plenty of people that have learned them from other life experiences. Also, some of the worst code I've ever had the pleasure of reading was written by people with graduate degrees. I myself didn't graduate, because the allure of starting a company was too strong. Here I am 20 years later advising people with…

> Another thing I'm lacking are the deep friendships and connections that people who have a degree seem to have. That, to me, is the biggest loss from skipping a degree. Despite significant effort I don't seem to be able to make that part up.

“The Second Gate: The Places That Have Not Known Love

There is another entrance to grief, a second gateway, different from the gate connected to losing someone or something that we love. This grief occurs in the places often untouched by love. These are profoundly tender places precisely because they have lived outside of kindness, compassion, warmth, or welcome. These are the places within us that have been wrapped in shame and banished to the farthest shores of our lives. We often hate these parts of ourselves, hold them in contempt, and refuse to allow them the light of day. We do not show these outcast brothers and sisters to anyone, and we thereby deny these parts of ourselves the healing salve of community.

These neglected pieces of soul live in utter despair. What we perceive as defective about ourselves, we also experience as loss. Whenever any portion of who we are is denied, we live in a condition of loss. The proper response to any loss is grief, but we cannot grieve for something that we feel is outside the circle of worth. That is our predicament—we chronically sense the presence of sorrow, but we are unable to truly grieve, because we feel in our body that this piece of who we are is unworthy of grief.”

“The Fourth Gate: What We Expected and Did Not Receive

There is another gate to grief, one difficult to identify, yet it is very present in each of our lives. This threshold into sorrow calls forward the things that we may not even realize we have lost. I have written elsewhere about the expectations coded into our physical and psychic lives. When we are born, and as we pass through childhood, adolescence, and the stages of adulthood, we are designed to anticipate a certain quality of welcome, engagement, touch, and reflection. In short, we expect what our deep-time ancestors experienced as their birthright, namely, the container of the village. We are born expecting a rich and sensuous relationship with the earth and communal rituals of celebration, grief, and healing that keep us in connection with the sacred. As T. S. Eliot wrote in The Waste Land “Once upon a time, we knew the world from birth.” This is our inheritance, our birthright, which has been lost and abandoned. The absence of these requirements haunts us, even if we can’t give them a name, and we feel their loss as an ache, a vague sadness that settles over us like a fog. This lack is simultaneously one of the primary sources of our grief and one of the reasons we find it difficult to grieve. On some level, we are waiting for the village to appear so we can fully acknowledge our sorrows.”

- Francis Weller, The Wild Edge of Sorrow

Re: Do I need to go to university?

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't disagree that degrees and college education are important, but I don't think pointing to wealthy people is good evidence. Many of the wealthiest billionaires dropped out of school, didn't even go, or didn't consider it important. There are also many wealthy via inheritance. So, looking at the wealthy is not the demographic cohort that reveals the value of higher education. The reasons to attend college are mo…

> Many of the wealthiest billionaires dropped out of school It's of course a very nice story that they "dropped out of school", but the truth is more nuanced than that. For example Bill Gates and Elon Musk had school as a backup plan in case their business would fail. So it's not that they dropped out of school to pursue their business, they suspended their school for their business, and still had it as a backup plan…

Agree completely, but just wanted to point out that Elon Musk has an ivy league bachelor's degree. What he dropped out of was his Ph.D. program, which is more akin to quitting a job than "dropping out of school".

Re: Do I need to go to university?

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't disagree that degrees and college education are important, but I don't think pointing to wealthy people is good evidence. Many of the wealthiest billionaires dropped out of school, didn't even go, or didn't consider it important. There are also many wealthy via inheritance. So, looking at the wealthy is not the demographic cohort that reveals the value of higher education. The reasons to attend college are mo…

> Many of the wealthiest billionaires dropped out of school, didn't even go, or didn't consider it important. There are also many wealthy via inheritance. So, looking at the wealthy is not the demographic cohort that reveals the value of higher education. Yeah there is some serious selection bias there -- Bill Gates' dad was a wealthy lawyer who sent his kid to a private school that had it's own computer systems in t…

Right, Gates was relatively well off AND lucky to be hacking at the right time.

Jobs was not rich at all but lived in the right general area AND was lucky to have the right interests to make friends with Woz.

Re: Do I need to go to university?

#186

Telling people they don't "need" to go to university is an act of personal sabotage. The person giving you that advice is either an idiot, or wants to keep you in your place for other reasons. This is an urgent view. The post-hoc justifications of people who either didn't go, or people who did go but want to believe their other accomplishments are more defining - are not valuable to someone who has the means and oppo…

This is so spot on except for this: > You don't know them because you don't get to them until 10y+ after you graduate. I think it's actually much quicker. A degree matters most for your first few jobs after you graduate, and your first few jobs matter a lot for your career.

I feel like this is difficult to quantify. For some people, especially top-tier talent, this is probably true. But I don't think it is necessarily the case for everyone.

I started my profession programming career at 18, but went back for a CS degree at around 30. I did notice a difference in the quality of job offers that I received since getting a degree. Prior to my degree, I only ever received job offers from smaller places. Immediately after receiving my diploma, I managed to get a really well paying job at one of the largest tech companies in my city.

There's no way of knowing how much of an influence my degree had on this, but I suspect it was critical. This particular company hired people without college degrees. All of my subsequent jobs have been with companies would be out of reach for me without a degree.

Times are definitely changing, especially with the rise of bootcamps. And my anecdotes can't be extrapolated to everyone, but I do think there is still value in technical degrees from a university, even for CS.

Re: Do I need to go to university?

#187
Disagree with the overall "do I have anything more compelling to do" notion.

You can have a perfectly good and valid life as a human on earth without having set foot in a university. When you decide to attend a university, you always do so at the expense or other perfectly valid things.

I think everyone should go if they can, and simultaneously I think three- and four- year degrees are too long for most people. We need to establish a program to get degrees in shorter installments, say 1.5 years each.

In other words, tech companies should seriously start considering hiring people with Associate's Degrees (or equivalent) where applicable, to turn this degree into a real viable option. I can take anyone with a brain from zero to working coder in 1.5 years of full-time study, including the maths.

I can't speak for other fields, but for tech I'm pretty confident this will be great.

Anyone should be able to sacrifice a year and a half and a reasonable tuition to be able to get the college experience. I think we can make it much more accessible.

Re: Do I need to go to university?

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't disagree that degrees and college education are important, but I don't think pointing to wealthy people is good evidence. Many of the wealthiest billionaires dropped out of school, didn't even go, or didn't consider it important. There are also many wealthy via inheritance. So, looking at the wealthy is not the demographic cohort that reveals the value of higher education. The reasons to attend college are mo…

> Many of the wealthiest billionaires dropped out of school It's of course a very nice story that they "dropped out of school", but the truth is more nuanced than that. For example Bill Gates and Elon Musk had school as a backup plan in case their business would fail. So it's not that they dropped out of school to pursue their business, they suspended their school for their business, and still had it as a backup plan…

Also, Bill Gates took really intense courses at Harvard. For example, he took Math 55, which appears to cover more in a single semester than a lot of applied mathematics programs cover in four years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Math_55

Re: Do I need to go to university?

#189
There are four areas in which to benefit from going to university:

The academic side: the opportunity to study in depth a subject you love or that will be useful to you, from (hopefully) great academics of the field.

The social side: meet people who might become your friends for life, or your future spouse. Have a rich and intense social life before career and family take over.

The networking side: meet people, whether students or academics, who will be useful to you in your future career.

The extra-curricular side: student journalism, debating, politics, music, drama, sports etc. Follow your hobby like never before. It might even become your career instead of your major.

Obviously the four are not disconnected. But you can probably only go all in on one or two.

But then the cost. You need to decide whether it is worth it for what you will get out of it (that being some combination of the four areas above).

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