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Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

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Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#181

This is where culture really matters. Almost every jurisdiction in the western world has faced this issue. Governments are issuing orders that, when push comes to shove, might not be 100% legitimate in the eyes of a court. In most countries that hasn't mattered. People acknowledge the covid problem and are obeying the "orders" despite them, perhaps, not having legal teeth. This requires trust. Like the current politi…

Nonsense. You say that as if the 50 States' legislatures have been wiped out by covid-19 and can't convene (or be convened, as the case may be) and pass laws. In the U.S. executive orders simply don't and can't have the force of law without the support of statutory law, not relative to civilians[0]. If you want a law, it needs to be passed as a statute by the appropriate legislature and must become law via all the us…

Everything about the comment above is totally incorrect when it comes to the law in the US. Just to give you a taste of how wrong this is: the case isn't even about an executive order by a governor! It's about the rulemaking of the Secretary of the Department of Health Services. Not only is the parent wrong, the opinion actually goes out of it's way in the first paragraph to say this! "This case is not about Governor Tony Evers' Emergency Order or the powers of the Governor."

> In the U.S. executive orders simply don't and can't have the force of law without the support of statutory law, not relative to civilians[0]. If you want a law, it needs to be passed as a statute by the appropriate legislature and must become law via all the usual mechanisms.

This isn't true for many reasons including: the federal government controls a lot of what happens in the country indirectly and executive orders can decide what the law means (even if that meaning goes against what the law intended). Executive orders can for example suspend immigration. That absolutely affects civilians in an extremely practical way. More fundamentally, this kind of statement totally ignores how the legal system in the US works practically. Yes, there are laws, but laws are vague and must be interpreted. The federal government makes rules that interpret laws. These rules are what the law "is" practically. There is wide disagreement about what rules a particular law allows or doesn't allow. Executive orders can and do change these rules.

> That has nothing to do with corruption or taxes, and everything to do with long-established, well-thought-out, constitutional law. Yes, we're talking about constitutional law based on past skepticism of government

This is completely and utterly false! You shouldn't say these things without reading the opinion. Neither side made this argument at all and the court narrowly ruled that the rulemaking process had not been followed correctly.

> Also, the U.S. Constitution's requirement that State governments be (small-r) republican

There is no such requirement. This was also not about federal constitutional law, it was about the constitution of Wisconsin.

> extends the constraints on the President's EO power to the States' Governors.

Absolutely not. Each state has its own constitution, the federal constitution says no such thing at all. Also this case was not about an executive order!

> the Court might well rule that the clause does mean that Governors cannot impose emergency rules without statutory support

Again, please read the opinion before you say such things. The main argument was that some details of the law had not been followed.

> This was a decision by a court, not a question of whether the people support their governments

Only in the narrowest sense. It was a decision by a party, not a court. Republicans put their judges in power and the Republican judges made a decision. In that sense the US is absolutely unlike any other democracy in the world.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#182
If you are. Curious about the actual hearing that led to this, which I read as more intellectually honeston the part of the jurists than the ruling, slate has a nice summary with extensive quotes.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/05/wisconsin-suprem...

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#183

This is where culture really matters. Almost every jurisdiction in the western world has faced this issue. Governments are issuing orders that, when push comes to shove, might not be 100% legitimate in the eyes of a court. In most countries that hasn't mattered. People acknowledge the covid problem and are obeying the "orders" despite them, perhaps, not having legal teeth. This requires trust. Like the current politi…

If it makes you feel any better, the lockdowns probably don't matter in the limit. 1) Individual behavior changed prior to the lockdowns (people don't want to die) 2) The government appears generally too incompetent to figure out how to lower R0 low enough to eradicate the virus 3) Since everyone can see that the govt is fucking this up, the marginal utility of hard lockdowns becomes less than the marginal pain. Some…

Points #1 and #4 are evident in states who have already re-opened for business: Restaurants are seeing 80% reduction regarding in-room dining year over year, SIP orders being lifted be damned.

Point #1 was reinforced by looking at OpenTable data as well. de Blasio told people to go to restaurants, and on that same day he urged people to congregate in close quarters, reservations were down 34% year over year and had been trending down for 2 weeks.

People aren't stupid despite what the media reports, picking out groups of people to prove a point they want to push.

Furthermore, the lockdowns moved the Overton window for a lot of people, hammering it in their head that they need to practice social distancing. It's not likely going to get any stronger with government-mandated half-measure lockdowns continuing.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it makes you feel any better, the lockdowns probably don't matter in the limit. 1) Individual behavior changed prior to the lockdowns (people don't want to die) 2) The government appears generally too incompetent to figure out how to lower R0 low enough to eradicate the virus 3) Since everyone can see that the govt is fucking this up, the marginal utility of hard lockdowns becomes less than the marginal pain. Some…

Hacker News REALLY needs to get rid of the damn down-voting because it's causing HN to become little more than an echo chamber. In its place, people can make use of "reply" to air their viewpoint.

I see it as top comment, where is the echo chamber?

I think downvoting unhealthy positions doesn't necessarily cause an echo chamber. Is it really necessary to address every irrational, stupid, inciting, ... posting? Is really every opinion worth being respected? I don't find the op offensive but it's been repeated here many times over - does each copy need a rebuttal or response?

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but I don't believe in the mantra that everyone's opinion matters equally.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#185
post #95

“If a forest fire breaks out, there is no time for debate. Action is needed. The governor could declare an emergency and respond accordingly. But in the case of a pandemic, which lasts month after month, the governor cannot rely on emergency powers indefinitely,” Roggensack wrote for the majority. Refreshing to see some pressure for democracy to resume.

The legislatures have not been wiped out by covid-19. Elections are still being held too. If the legislatures wish to pass laws requiring various establishments to close down, they can pass them, and if Governors wish to have such laws on the books, they can request them of their respective legislatures. Similarly for the Federal government: Congress is still sitting, and they call their own sessions -- it can pass w…

But is it really democracy in action if a small-r Republicans holds the governor hostage?

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nonsense. You say that as if the 50 States' legislatures have been wiped out by covid-19 and can't convene (or be convened, as the case may be) and pass laws. In the U.S. executive orders simply don't and can't have the force of law without the support of statutory law, not relative to civilians[0]. If you want a law, it needs to be passed as a statute by the appropriate legislature and must become law via all the us…

Wisconsin's legislature passed a law that gives the Department of Health the authority to issue orders in the face of a public health emergency. It is because of extreme partisanship that the extremely partisan Wisconsin court has now struck down that law in a blatant act of judicial activism to get the political result they wanted.

> struck down that law

Not true, no laws were struck down. They simply overturned Emergency Order 28. DHS can even reissue the order, they just need to submit it to the appropriate legislative committee for approval.

At the heart of the lawsuit was a state law governing communicable diseases that says the Department of Health Services "may close schools and forbid public gatherings in schools, churches, and other places to control outbreaks and epidemics," and gives it the power to "authorize and implement all emergency measures necessary to control communicable diseases."

But the majority found Palm also had to follow another state law that requires regulations to be submitted to a legislative committee that can block them.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#187
post #65
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>can harm others Can you be more specific? It's the nebulousness of what "can harm" that rubs a lot of people the wrong way. Taken to one extreme, there's almost nothing you can do that doesn't potentially harm others. For example, I could leave my stove burner on and burn down the entire apartment building. So many things come with risks to others, and those things are just part of existing in society.

Fine. I doubt you're arguing in good faith, but let's go there ... Vaccines. The government has the right to require your children to have vaccines before they go to school because not doing so has extremely harmful effects on others when we drop below herd immunity. Smoking. The government has the right to create anti-smoking laws because the market simply wouldn't produce a non-smoking bar that wouldn't affect the…

>> The government has the right to require your children to have vaccines before they go to school because not doing so has extremely harmful effects on others when we drop below herd immunity.

This is not entirely accurate.

>> The government has the right to create anti-smoking laws because the market simply wouldn't produce a non-smoking bar that wouldn't affect the health of the people actually working there.

This was likely due to market failure, not due to health reasons.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but there's much less support for Executives acting alone. We have a republican form of government where only the legislative branch can pass criminal statutes. In this case the Wisconsin Legislature sued to preserve its powers and prerogatives, as well it should. That does not mean that it won't be amenable to passing supporting statutes.

> Yes, but there's much less support for Executives acting alone. The whole point of having an executive is for a single person to act alone and decisively, especially in times of crisis. In the midst of an emergency is not the time for legislative subcommittees to endlessly debate.

The process in Wisconsin isn't endless debate - just submit the rile to the legislative committee, and they have the power to negate it. It is affirmed by default.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#189
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When our actions can harm others, the government absolutely has the right—and the obligation—to step in. No. When our actions have harmed others, then the government has the right to step in--because we delegated that power to them. But the government does not have the right to step in just because some government official things our actions "can" harm others. That's not their call to make. We are adult human being…

Wait. I can drive drunk now? Those checkpoints are actually illegal? All those people in jail for DUIs shouldn’t be there? Has anyone taken these laws to the Supreme Court?

Wait, you can ban drinking because it could lead to drunk driving now? Because that's a closer analogy.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#190

This is where culture really matters. Almost every jurisdiction in the western world has faced this issue. Governments are issuing orders that, when push comes to shove, might not be 100% legitimate in the eyes of a court. In most countries that hasn't mattered. People acknowledge the covid problem and are obeying the "orders" despite them, perhaps, not having legal teeth. This requires trust. Like the current politi…

>But what about the US? If all government is corrupt, if all taxes are sin, if all leaders on the other side are traitors to the cause, the people will never respect those in charge.

>The people don't obey the "orders" nor follow advice. Then they wrap themselves in the flag and actively work against the measures in the name of freedom.

I'm strongly against big government, disagree with most R's and D's, will gladly wrap myself in the flag and I'm still quarantining for the most part. Just because you support freedom doesn't mean you're ignorant to this pandemic or methods to reduce spread. It just means you're protective of your rights because government has a very long history of using these kind of opportunities to infringe on them.

The other countries you speak about have already lost their rights, or never had them to begin with.

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