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Airbreak.dev: Jailbreak your CPAP machine to turn them into ventilators

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Re: Airbreak.dev: Jailbreak your CPAP machine to turn them into ventilators

#181

Post by rswail »

prostheticvamp wrote: post #108
SubiculumCode wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its worse than that. Before receiving a CPAP machine ~$1,000, most doctor's require a sleep study, which costs many thousands of dollars, and many times wait months to get the appointment. CPAP machines are usually the ultimate solution to reported sleep problems involving repeatedly waking up, and I don't see why they can't be prescribed immediately to see if they solve the problem.

Because (a) there are problems that are not sleep apnea that should not be missed, and (b) the cpap pressure needs to be titrated to your need, it’s not a binary device. Admittedly, (b) is now less of an issue since there are a handful of auto-titrating machines on the market now. They’re less reliable than a sleep study, but they’re better than nothing.

I have a Resmed S8 that is now at least 10 years old. They had APAP then, so it's not a new option.

Re: Airbreak.dev: Jailbreak your CPAP machine to turn them into ventilators

#182

Post by [deleted] »

wormyrocks wrote: post #56

Hi, I worked on this project and have a couple comments to address the issues people are raising. - There are established medical protocols to treat COVID-19 patients with BiPAP machines, including the addition of a viral filter to mitigate aerosolizing the virus. People are using these protocols now and we link to them from the site. - There are two separate firmware hacks presented. The first one modifies ~20 bytes…

[deleted]

Re: Airbreak.dev: Jailbreak your CPAP machine to turn them into ventilators

#183

Post by rswail »

fortran77 wrote: post #133
dpeck wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least on Delta flights they’re not allowed to be used, I’m not sure if the same policy exists on other airlines. Edit: I was wrong, see below

I've sat next to people using them on Delta and United. Of course, I'm not without empathy for people who depend on them. But if a person has a viral infection that can be spread through droplets, this can be a very dangerous situation. If I'm ever in this situation again, I'll ask to be reseated. If they can't do that, I'm not sure I'd want to fly.

You'd better not let someone sitting next to you breathe, or cough, or sneeze then.

When I'm using my CPAP, my mouth is closed and I'm asleep. I'm breathing through my nose, which has hairy filters in it, plus a mask that has a filter on its exhaust, plus the machine has a filter on its inlet.

Please stop the knee-jerk reactions. CPAP devices and aerosolized droplets are a problem if you know the patient is infected and you are up close to them putting the masks on.

Re: Airbreak.dev: Jailbreak your CPAP machine to turn them into ventilators

#184

Post by rswail »

huslage wrote: post #144

As a CPAP user who needs a new machine, I am now screwed by this. This will, by the time I have a new sleep study, cause all sorts of supply issues.

I have a 9 year old machine that still works perfectly well. Why do you need a new machine?

Re: Airbreak.dev: Jailbreak your CPAP machine to turn them into ventilators

#185

Post by tibbydudeza »

takk309 wrote: post #14
jon_elbrook wrote: post #9

ventilators don't just pump air. they also monitor and control the amount of air, and beep when something is wrong. plus a bunch of other features...

Exactly, I would not like being hooked up to a machine that could overinflate my lungs without sounding any alarms.

That is why they are limited to deliver only 20cmH2O (water pressure).

Even at that high setting it does not affect your lungs ... the purpose of a CPAP is keep your upper airways open i.e back of your throat ... you still need to breath on your own.

Re: Airbreak.dev: Jailbreak your CPAP machine to turn them into ventilators

#186

Post by sokoloff »

janoc wrote: post #57
shawnz wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's irresponsible to not be donating our full talents as engineers to assisting those medical researchers in getting a head start on such developments. We have the ability to offload trivialities from those researchers like developing a firmware flashing process, so that they can focus on ensuring the reliable operation of such hacks.

The problem is that those talents are being used to solve totally wrong problems because of engineers going gung-ho and starting to "engineer" before they understand the subject. The problem is not lack of designs or ideas for ventilators. This sort of hack still requires that someone makes those things at scale. That's a supply chain issue, same as taking an existing, proven and actually certified design and manufac…

In a scenario where people are certain to die if there is a lack of ventilators, I’m willing to take a lot of risk that they instead might die from an alternative course of treatment that doesn’t meet a normal standard of care.

If that means taking already made CPAP machines and modifying them, that’s in bounds as far as I can judge.

Re: Airbreak.dev: Jailbreak your CPAP machine to turn them into ventilators

#187

Post by tomhoward »

derrick_jensen wrote: post #92
patmorgan23 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually yes(not that this is particularly dangerous) . It happens litteraly all the time. Ever seen all those "don't try this at home" disclaimers? Also someone published a book called "the anarchist cook book" on how to make rudimentary explosives and manufacture illicit substances such as LSD. You can find a pdf of it with a quick google search.

Both of those have fairly obvious consequences. I can definitely see people using this and not recognizing it can put other people in harms way.

This kind of concern-trolling on threads like this gets really tiresome.

Anyone in such a role where they will be fitting ventilators to people (i.e., highly educated, experienced and employed in a critical care role) will understand that this is outside of standard practice and that extra caution will need to be taken and considerations made for the different functionality and behaviour of the machine.

Can't we just appreciate the spirit of inventiveness in a crisis, without having to spoil it by fretting about issues that any grown adult working with this stuff will be fully capable of considering?

Re: Airbreak.dev: Jailbreak your CPAP machine to turn them into ventilators

#188

Post by tomp »

MrStonedOne wrote: post #129
electriclove wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is a prescription required anyway?

In most medical devices anything, prescription is justified the same (read in a mocking voice) "There could be another reason for those symptoms so if we don't gate your access behind an expensive doctors visit you could treat the wrong thing and die" This is used to justify eyeglass prescriptions. This bullshit really needs to go, especially for eyeglass prescriptions. Making people wait weeks for another eye exam w…

I though eyeglasses prescriptions were to assess the right "myopia settings" (not sure what the right word is)?? I guess they should stay valid for some period of time, like 1-5 years, in case you break your glasses, but presumably your sight can change (worsen) over time so another exam is a good thing.

Re: Airbreak.dev: Jailbreak your CPAP machine to turn them into ventilators

#189

Post by minikites »

tomhoward wrote: post #187
derrick_jensen wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both of those have fairly obvious consequences. I can definitely see people using this and not recognizing it can put other people in harms way.

This kind of concern-trolling on threads like this gets really tiresome. Anyone in such a role where they will be fitting ventilators to people (i.e., highly educated, experienced and employed in a critical care role) will understand that this is outside of standard practice and that extra caution will need to be taken and considerations made for the different functionality and behaviour of the machine. Can't we just…

This post is a perfect distillation of why there should be more history and other humanities subjects in traditionally STEM educations.

>Can't we just appreciate the spirit of inventiveness in a crisis, without having to spoil it by fretting about issues that any grown adult working with this stuff will be fully capable of considering?

Can't we just appreciate the inventiveness of using radium to light up watch dials? Or the inventiveness of the first friction matches?

Someone who is educated or trained doesn't necessarily make a dangerous invention a net-positive.

Re: Airbreak.dev: Jailbreak your CPAP machine to turn them into ventilators

#190

Post by fortran77 »

rswail wrote: post #183
fortran77 wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've sat next to people using them on Delta and United. Of course, I'm not without empathy for people who depend on them. But if a person has a viral infection that can be spread through droplets, this can be a very dangerous situation. If I'm ever in this situation again, I'll ask to be reseated. If they can't do that, I'm not sure I'd want to fly.

You'd better not let someone sitting next to you breathe, or cough, or sneeze then. When I'm using my CPAP, my mouth is closed and I'm asleep. I'm breathing through my nose, which has hairy filters in it, plus a mask that has a filter on its exhaust, plus the machine has a filter on its inlet. Please stop the knee-jerk reactions. CPAP devices and aerosolized droplets are a problem if you know the patient is infected…

These are not "knee-jerk" reactions.

There's a special, enhanced, risk with CPAP that authoritative medical sources warn about.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3338532/

Let's be civil here and assume good faith.

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